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From: david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: physics and history
Message-ID: <335@cvl.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 22-Apr-85 13:04:52 EST
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Posted: Mon Apr 22 13:04:52 1985
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>From: wkp@lanl.ARPA
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.philosophy
Subject: Free will and the use of mumbo-jumbo
Message-ID: <24814@lanl.ARPA>
Date: 21 Apr 85 05:49:20 GMT
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Xref: cvl net.religion:6377 net.philosophy:1558

Free will is really interesting to argue about, but let's keep
the inaccurate physics out of these articles, guys (and gal).

If you have a viewpoint about free will, fine, but let's not
not bring up quantum mechanics and entropy to prove your point.
I'm really getting frustrated at having to see such flagrant
conceptual errors in physics being posted in this newsgroup.

Even my students in the Phys 262 class I teach at UNM seem to have
more understanding.  But then, they're all Ken Arndt's age, and
that's pretty old...:-)
--

bill peter                 {seismo,ihnp4}!cmcl2!lanl!wkp

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	Regardless of whether or not quantum mechanical indeterminacy
is relevant to speculations about "free will", it may be relevant to
whether human history is humanly predictable. My point is that history
involves the coming into being of genetically unique individuals, as well
as of original ideas, and both human genetic and ideological conception 
almost certainly are sensitive to quantum mechanical "events" which are 
observationally indeterminate, in principle. 
	It may be that there is a veil over human history which is 
ultimately the same veil over our physical understanding. Of course,
there may be no veil before God; also, we could never know, in principle,
whether He might be busy with some "miracles" (as Einstein might have said,
God plays with ~loaded dice~). Besides this, it seems to me to be a good
thing that there is no way we can know the outcome of history, even if it
is "freely" determined by our natures. After all, we are naturally curious
and hopeful and speculative, and if we were perfectly informed about human
behavior, as well as about lifeless phenomena, what mystery and adventure
would there be in life.
	(To suggest the sensitivity of neurological mechanism, a single
retinal cell (a photo-chemical transducer) can reliably "fire" upon
the incidence of ~one~ photon; not only this, but a person whose vision 
is totally dark-adapted can reliably ~consciously~ detect the incidence
of 15 photons in a brief moment (nervous cells integrate information over
a short time, which is longer than the refractory period of the cells,
which period of sampling is longer than 1 msec., for the fastest (auditory)
cells.) The point is that the neurological mechanism is generally sensitive
to the absolute limits of physical information, because the most sensitive
creature will more likely survive, and the least twinkling of the eye, or
of recticular activation, or of the other unconscious mechanisms may be
significant.)
	I've been told by my physicist friends that even they do not 
understand quantum mechanics -- they simply become more familiar with 
manipulating symbols of their ignorance. Of course, they have not attended 
your classes in New Mexico. (just teasing)
	It is good for you to inform us that you are a physicist, with
reservations about others' speculations, but I would rather have you inform
us of your moral reservations about the military research of physicists.
I suppose that you are employed at Los Alamos, and I would be very interested
in your views. Certainly everyone is concerned with the fate of the Earth,
which, these days, seems to be in the hands of politicians and their 
physicists. Would you care to say something in Net.religion about the race
from knowledge to self-destruction? 
	I am reminded that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, the talented 
companions of Daniel, were also threatened with immediate fiery destruction 
if they would not bow down to the extravagant 90 foot monolith of Babylon, 
nevertheless they would not bow down.
	I don't mean to suggest at all that you yourself are employed in 
this way; I am simply wanting to hear from you about this matter, which 
my pacifist friends believe is of religious significance (although perhaps 
you would disagree that this also should be left to those who are more 
informed about politics or physics.) Would you care to say something about 
this?
						David Harwood