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From: ben@moncol.UUCP (Bennett Broder)
Newsgroups: net.audio
Subject: Re: CD's:  The heresy unfolds
Message-ID: <285@moncol.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 6-May-85 16:16:30 EDT
Article-I.D.: moncol.285
Posted: Mon May  6 16:16:30 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 7-May-85 09:00:31 EDT
References: <1398@mtx5b.UUCP>
Organization: Monmouth College, West Long Branch, NJ 07764
Lines: 86

>Well, I got my first chance to hear the much-spoken-of inadaqucy of CDs.
>What follows is a set of subjective impressions, and some half-baked
>conclusions.
>
>Relevant parts of my system:
>	Yamaha P350 turntable, Dynavector mc cartridge (that red one with the
>		``III'' on the side), Mission Sorbothane mat.
>	Magnavox (Philips) original model CD player.
>	Carver C4000 whizzbang preamp-and-laundromat combo.
>	Carver m400 amp.  (Not the one tweaked to the Mark Levinson transfer
>								function)
>	Boston Acoustics A100 (original model) speakers, with A40s on the
>					C4000's time delay outputs.
>
>The recording in question:  Pink Floyd:  The Dark Side of the Moon, on
>Mobile Fidelity Original Master and on CD.
>
>The subjective results:
>
>	This recording features voices that are floating just at or above the
>``noise level'' of the music and sound effects, and are just barely intellig-
>able as a result (this is a deliberate artistic effect).  On the CD, the
>voices stand out much clearer, spoiling somewhat the effect.  Further, the
>CD seems rather brighter than the vinyl.  The vocal timbre in ``The Great Gig
>in the Sky'' is somewhat different.
>
>	Also, the imaging on the CD seems poorer.  On the Mobile Fidelity
>disc, I get the best results with Carver's ``Sonic Hologram'' on the
>``theoretical'' setting (more crosstalk-cancelling crossfeed introduced);
>on the CD, I got better results on the ``normal'' setting (less crossfeed).
>In no way was I able to get imaging with the CD as good as with the Mobile
>Fidelity disc.  From that pressing, I get imaging to about 135 degrees to
>either side of me, eg I can hear that ``car'' at the beginning driving around
>past 4:30 o'clock, where it becimes a blur, and then coming back into focus
>at about 7:30 (both behind me)  On the CD the image seemed to circle in front
>of me, and in a very shallow ellipse rather than a circle.
>
>The half baked conclusion:
>
>	What I heard seems consistant with what Carver claims to have found,
>though it does not prove it by any means.  Carver's claims are that, relative
>to vinyl, CDs have:
>
>		A slight peak in the upper midrange, with a slight dip just
>		below the peak.  This could account for the voices coming
>		through the other sound more distinctly, and for the different
>		timbre in ``TGGitS''.
>
>		A reduced stereo component in each channel.  This could account
>		for the loss of imaging.
>
>Anyone care to comment, or know of any particular problems with that disc that
>would reduce the validity of these conclusions?

Yes!!!  The problem is not entirely with the Pink Floyd CD (although dark side
of the moon, an old analog recording, is far from the best of the CD
medium), it is with your Carver equipment.  If you have been following
the recent discussion about Bose 901s, you know that many on the net
have discounted a previous review because the 901 is a gimmick
speaker.  Well, the Carver sonic holography circuit is an even bigger
gimmick!!  It adds stereo difference information (l-r, r-l) to each
channel, ruining the CD players virtually perfect channel separation.
Many people find this effect pleasing,  but it is far from accurate,  
and certainly not valid for judging the imaging qualities of a source.
Also, if Bob Carver really said that CD's have a upper midrange
frequency response problem, then he is totally off-base. (Nothing new
for Bob Carver :-) )  Digital audio is not without problems, but those
problems are not caused by the Compact disk's nearly perfect frequency
response.  I don't think there are many (if any) phono cartidges on
the market that are as flat between 20hz-20khz.

Getting back to your review, I do agree that the Mobile Fidelity
record sounds better than the CD.  But not for the reasons that you
and Bob Carver suggest.  Perhaps Mobile Fidelity used more TLC in
transfering the music from the master tapes?  Perhaps the tapes were
in better shape nearly ten years ago when Mobile Fidelity mastered its
record?  If you want to perform a more valid test, compare a current
digital recording, like Donald Fagen's 'The Nightfly' to the regular
vinyl version.  Or even to the Mobile Fidelity version.  And leave the
sonic holography, digital time lens, time delay, and other Carver
wizardry turned OFF.

                                      Ben Broder
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