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From: lambert@boring.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Re: tuna fish (actually re gooseberries)
Message-ID: <6403@boring.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 30-Apr-85 17:10:40 EDT
Article-I.D.: boring.6403
Posted: Tue Apr 30 17:10:40 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 2-May-85 04:40:51 EDT
References: <2550@drutx.UUCP> <395@ihu1m.UUCP> <2373@mit-hermes.ARPA> <318@rtech.ARPA>
Reply-To: lambert@boring.UUCP (Lambert Meertens)
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam
Lines: 43
Apparently-To: rnews@mcvax.LOCAL



> Does anyone have a theory on the etymology of "gooseberry".  Webster's 2nd
> says: "goose + berry; or perhaps altered from some older form; cf. F.
> groseille, G. krausberre, krauselbeere, D. kruisbes, kruisbezie."  This
> isn't much help to me; I don't know the meanings of the foreign words.  It's
> possible that "gooseberry" is a corruption of one of the given words.
> On the other hand, it could be that the words literally translate as
> "goose berry."  Can anyone help?

French "groseille" is used also for currants (red or white); the gooseberry
variety is known as "groseille a` maquereau" (mackerel currant), for its
use in preparing a sauce to be served with mackerel.  At least, according
to my edition of the Nouveau Petit Larousse Illustre'.  The same source
claims that groseille comes from German Kraus+Bere (meaning Curly+Berry).
Actually, neither Bere nor Berre are existing German words, only Beere will
do.  My German dictionary does not list Krausbeere, but only Kra"uselbeere,
but Kra"usel is clearly an acceptable variant of Kraus (e.g. kraushaarig =
"with curly hair", but Kra"useleisen = "hair-curling iron".)  I have no
theory how the French managed to drop the "b", which is even more unlikely
than turning an "r" into the French "ll".

German Kra"uselbeere and Dutch kruisbes both denote the gooseberry.  The
"literal" translation of kruisbes is "cross berry"; since there is nothing
cross about gooseberries, this is quite likely a corruption of some German
word "Krausbeere".  However, I happen to know that in some Dutch dialects
(both in Limburg and on the border between Brabant and Gelderland; possibly
elsewhere too) a gooseberry is called "kroezel" (my spelling; "oe" is
pronounced like "oo" in "goose"), without addition of a qualification "bes"
= berry.  This form seems to link French groseille with German
Kra"usel(beere).

All in all, it does not seem implausible to an amateur etymologist like
myself that there was some old word with unknown origin, like "grosel" or
"krosel", that developed into French groseille, German Kra"usel+beere (in
which Beere was added, since K. by itself already carries a meaning), Dutch
kruis+bes (possibly through an intermediate shortened German version
Krausbeere; in many cases G. "au" corresponds to D. "ui", like Haus --
huis), and, with elision of the "r", into English "goose"+"berry".
-- 

     Lambert Meertens
     ...!{seismo,okstate,garfield,decvax,philabs}!lambert@mcvax.UUCP
     CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science), Amsterdam