Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 exptools; site whuxl.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!houxm!whuxl!orb
From: orb@whuxl.UUCP (SEVENER)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Problems with libertarianism.:"coercion" re to jj
Message-ID: <629@whuxl.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 8-May-85 17:21:38 EDT
Article-I.D.: whuxl.629
Posted: Wed May  8 17:21:38 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 9-May-85 03:31:10 EDT
References: <485@cybvax0.UUCP> <2380007@acf4.UUCP> <515@cybvax0.UUCP> <1854@topaz.ARPA> <617@whuxl.UUCP> <1899@topaz.ARPA>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Whippany
Lines: 46

> In article <617@whuxl.UUCP> orb@whuxl.UUCP (SEVENER) writes:
> 
> >Have you ever been almost killed by somebody running a red light or
> >other such acts of highway lunacy?
> >That is "noncooperation".  Without the coercion of the police to restrain
> >people this would be the normal state of affairs.
> >         tim sevener    whuxl!orb
> 
> I'd like to cite this gem further to bolster my claim that Sevener
> really believes in coercion and not cooperation.  Any reasonable
> person would fear the possibility of being smashed to bits more than
> the possibility of a $50 fine for light-running--anyone who believes 
> the latter is necessary *merely believes in coercion rather than 
> cooperation*.  I (and most libertarians) believe that cooperation
> is its own reward, and that people do it naturally.
> 
> --JoSH

It just so happens that about 50,000 Americans a year die in traffic
accidents.  Of those deaths some are reckless drivers who have
inadvertantly committed suicide by driving recklessly.  However there
is also a high proportion who are simply victims of others reckless
driving.  These people did absolutely nothing wrong in terms of
either speeding or driving recklessly yet they were hit by others
who chose to ignore speed limits and rules of reasonable driving.
This lack of cooperation or concern for others occurred *despite*
existing speed limits.  While it is true that 90% of people will
cooperate to avoid harming others without any legal coercion whatsoever
there is a minority which will not.  Moreover, even among the 90%
who generally cooperate and would drive reasonably with no legal sanctions
there are many with a natural propensity to downplay the danger of
their own speeding (tell me who *actually* goes the speed limit??)
since it causes no immediate deaths.  Such speeding or reckless driving
merely increases the *probability* that others (or oneself) will be killed.
 
The existence of enforceable speed limits helps prevent the minority
from threatening the lives of others and helps the majority to
avoid the temptation to say "while I know speeding is dangerous on the
whole, it is allright for me in this case, especially as I am in a great
hurry".
 
The effect of such speed limits in preventing highway deaths is
demonstrated by the drastic falloff in traffic deaths after the
passage of the 55 mile per hour speed limit.
 
            tim sevener   whuxl!orb