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From: garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Re: Virgin Birth per duke!nlt
Message-ID: <817@bunker.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 26-Apr-85 10:11:54 EST
Article-I.D.: bunker.817
Posted: Fri Apr 26 10:11:54 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 27-Apr-85 06:09:07 EST
References: <1005@vax135.UUCP> <5212@fortune.UUCP>
Organization: Bunker Ramo, Trumbull Ct
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> In article <1005@vax135.UUCP> gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) writes:
> >it is currently
> >disputed (as it has been through the centuries) by SOME Christians(?)
> >who obviously must not believe in the inspired and infallible
> >written word of God, the Bible.
> >
> >Matt 1:18 (NAS) :
> >	Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother
> >	Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together
> >	she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> I don't see the word "virgin" in that passage anywhere.

> Richard A. Brower		Fortune Systems

Your point?  Do you therefore think that there is no scriptural
basis for belief in the virgin birth, or are you asking for
more information?  If the former, that's only one verse.  Two
sentences from a rather lengthy work.  If the latter, I apologize
for my hastiness, and offer the following:

In the first place, what do you suppose, "before they came together"
means?  Or the statement that she was "with child by the Holy
Spirit"?  (Usually, a pregnant woman is with child by a man.)

In the second place, read a few more verses.  Same book, same chapter,
verse 22-25 (NIV):
	All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said
	through the prophet: [23]"The virgin will be with child
	and will give birth to a son, and they will call him
	Immanuel" -- which means, "God with us."
	[24]When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord
	had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.  [25]But
	he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.
	And he gave him the name Jesus.

The quote in v23 is Isaiah 7:14.  Some argue that the word translated
"virgin" in Isaiah (almah) doesn't necessarily mean "virgin," but
would better be translated "young woman" (as in RSV).  However,
Matthew used the Greek word for "virgin" (parthenos), which (so I
have been told; I'm not a linguist) does not have the ambiguity
of the Hebrew "almah."  Quibbles about translation aside, Matthew
goes on to state that "he [Joseph] had no union with her until
she gave birth to a son."  Which, just as the earlier, "before
they came together," supports the doctrine of the virgin birth.
(And, incidentally, seems to do away with the doctrine of the
perpetual virginity of Mary.  If I say, "I didn't do X until Y,"
that implies that I *did* do X after Y.)

Gary Samuelson
ittvax!bunker!garys