Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-lymph!arndt From: arndt@lymph.DEC Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Pickin' bones with Mormans Message-ID: <1922@decwrl.UUCP> Date: Tue, 30-Apr-85 11:01:54 EDT Article-I.D.: decwrl.1922 Posted: Tue Apr 30 11:01:54 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 2-May-85 01:24:44 EDT Sender: daemon@decwrl.UUCP Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 108 ABOUT THE FOLLOWING SUBMISSION: *********************************** Holly, You seem to expect that I (as a latter-day-saint), or any other person can recieve a witness of truth through thier study of books. (Bible, Book of Mormon, Church History, Etc.) This is simply not the case. A knowledge of the truth comes ONLY by revelation from God which comes by the Holy Ghost. Prayer, Obedience, and Study are all essential. Study by ITSELF can assure nobody of truth. My testimony of God has come through prayer and personal revelation. Only after this can I now know that God has restored his Kingdom on earth through the instrument of a modern prophet. All of the scripture bashing in the world can never convince you or I to change our convictions. Don't ask your books, ask your Father in Heaven. Do not suppose that this is all. Upon recieving a witness from the Spirit, we must continue in faith, prayer, study of the revealed word, and obedience to the commandments that are contained therein. Tony Martinez "If any of ye lack wisdom, let him as of God" James 1:5 ************************************ I believe Tony has made several serious errors in his thinking. He eschews the use of 'books' as a source of truth but writes us to tell of it. Remember Tony, in the US anything over 50 pages is termed a 'book'!!! So don't write too much about it. "Don't ask your books, ask your Father in Heaven." says Tony. But hasn't that already been done over a long period of time and the message given from God written down for the express purpose of telling others and passing it on? The very thing YOU are doing on the net! I could say, don't ask Tony, ask God. Now remember, we are NOT asking God which way to part hair or what to have for lunch, but the larger questions on our ultimate fate & what it all means. It seems rather common sense that since we appear to all be in the same time zone the same facts about the case would apply to all. Therefore, it IS logical to 'ask the bible'. This is a standard Morman cop out when presured to account for passages of the bible that identify them as cursed - to use Paul's not nicy, nicy phrase. "I testify" they say on your doorstep. What they mean is , "I ignore the plain sense of scripture and accept the 'new scripture' from the hand of the angel to brother Smith. I 'feel' that this is so. After much looking everywhere except the record God has already given that men have written down in the 'Usenet' of their day - just like Tony is doing, eh? What the Mormans are really saying is that the Book of Morman and the teachings of the Morman Church that stem from the 'prophet' Smith, supercedes the rest of the Bible. How does one actually get to KNOW this? Well, one goes off by oneself (and God) and God gives you a personal message that it is so to which you come back to us all and 'testify'. The 'Christians' have twisted the truth which Mr. Smith has restored. The proof is in how they don't agree among themselves, right? But lo there are mucho Morman groups that don't speak to each other as well. Golly. Tony says; "Prayer, Obedience and Study are all essential." Prayer about WHAT (prayer beyond 'Ohmmmm' has content,eh?), Obedience to WHAT, STUDY OF WHAT???? Remember, not books or apparently anything that can be stated so that it can be 'booked', right? Satan is insulting your intelligence Tony. God appeals to it. Your cult twists passages like I Cor. 2:13 "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words." But if your method of learning the 'truth' is right - seek a personal message from God and then read the scriptures - how can Paul write these words and have them be meaningful to us in the first place? It would be the same mistake you make in your statements!! Either God speaks and one can repeat it or not. If not, what are you speaking for? If He does, why not read and follow the scriptures? After all, the scriptures plainly warn against FALSE prophets who twist what God has already spoken, do they not? What is the test? Can you guess? (Hint - they contradict what God has said is the truth!) The passage above by Paul, read in context of the flow of the point he is making, is not saying truth is mystical and comes from immediate personal transmission from God to each man but that the CONTENT of the truth is not easy to understand if one does not accept the framework of God is in the heavens to begin with. The assumptions people start with blind them to the truth. It also says we can only know so much about God without him saying something about himself to us. So human speculation about God, 'human wisdom', is limited. It clearly states 'spiritual words' which it would seem to mean something one can express as one and all do. Even Mormans! Now I work with Mormans. They are swell people. I like them a lot. Marie has danced her way through my heart! But they are wrong about God! And cursed for it! I am not happy about that, but they refuse to be instructed. Christ says, "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy,God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city." Rev.22:18-19 Christ is clearly portrayed in Revelation contrary to the teaching of the Mormans - all 30 or so groups of them. Regards, Ken Arndt