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From: david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: reply to Bill Peter again
Message-ID: <368@cvl.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 30-Apr-85 18:38:47 EDT
Article-I.D.: cvl.368
Posted: Tue Apr 30 18:38:47 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 2-May-85 05:15:13 EDT
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Further remarks to a reply 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>From: peter@unm-la.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: physics and history (Reply to David Harwood)
Message-ID: <283@unm-la.UUCP>

...
   ...
      ...

     For whatever reason, many of David's fellow christians either do not
agree with his pacifist ideologies or do not abide by them.  This is  
historically understandable, since from the times of Constantine, Christianity
has been one of the more aggressive ideological movements in history.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

	I wish that Bill, in his cautious but friendly reply, had not made 
me seem more righteous than I am; for I  have several Christian friends,
and know of many others, some not Christian, who are far less guilty than I am,
in crying out against the increasing militarization of international politics
and economy. 
	I have observed before that the total worldwide expenditure for
military purposes is greater than the combined income of the poorer half of
the world's population; and that the cost of just one Trident submarine, more
than 2.3 billion dollars, could effectively eliminate the urgent suffering
of Africa. This emphatically is not a just, peaceful, or charitable nation;
and belief in theological formulae, as if they were magical, like "Jesus is
the Christ", will not "save" anyone if they do not care for those who are
otherwise lost. It is nothing to be charitable or to seek peace with one's
fellows; rather, what is necessary is to be charitable and to seek to be
reconciled with those who are poor or lost, whether they are aliens, even
enemies.
	There is a story told by the Tolstoi, who became a radical, pacifist
Christian in his later life, one who decisively influenced Ghandi when he
was a young man (who influenced M.L. King and so forth): He was studying the
Gospels with the help of a rabbi. Again and again, the rabbi would read the
verses, so to give Tolstoi the traditional Jewish view, but he would insist,
again and again, that there was nothing importantly original in this teaching
of Jesus, that it was all to be found somewhere in the Jewish scriptures
or in the traditional commentaries and opinions. That is, until they came to
those difficult teachings concerned with overcoming the evil by steadfast
good will. Here, the rabbi did not deny that they were new, neither did he
deny their truth, but rather he asked perhaps somewhat ironically whether,
in fact, Christians did practice this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The Jewish prophets foresaw a time when a nation will not lift up sword
against another nation. This may be ambiguous from a Christian perspective
since their messiah has already come.  But in an age witnessing the
destruction of six million Jews in Christian Europe, I will not trust
in man what I hope of G-d.
-- 
bill peter                                 ihnp4!lanl!wkp

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	Bill reminds us of the Holocaust of World War II, and may wonder what
pacifists would do in the face of this. It is hard to say whether one should
fight or flee; but the alternative is to speak the truth publicly with the
risk of suffering, as Jesus did, so that the conscience of mankind, placed in
our hearts by God, may be appealed to.
	I might mention that a number of readers of this Net group have 
commended the reply of (Bill) Jeffreys about our moral obligation to publicly 
repudiate those who deny the Holocaust and similar atrocities; we should not
let ourselves become so hard-hearted or fearful or vain that we fail to speak
against what is clearly evil, since otherwise we shall someday allow someone
to decieve us into strutting about in his uniform. Anyway, at the risk of
embarassing him, I just happen to know that Bill Jeffreys is a Quaker. And even
if he would disavow being called a "Christian", perhaps preferring to munch 
on zen koans for enlightenment, rather than the Gospel parables, I would call
him the true Christian, having the true spirit of Christ. 
	You should understand that many pacifists are disaffected with the 
atrocious history of so-called 'Christian salvation'.
	With this in mind, my Jewish and Quaker friends have asked me why
am I recently become a member of the infamous Catholic Church. It is for two
reasons. First, even if we do not yet understand what we profess to believe,
I believe that Jesus is has been 'glorified' by God so that we may know how
to live. The revelation of this is the ultimate foundation of Christianity;
everything else may be wrong, but this I believe is true. Secondly, the
Catholic Church is not yet pacifist, neither has it yet repented of its
historical sins. Then why am I of this church? The reason is my hope for this
church, which is ancient and international more than any other. Bill has 
recalled an ancient Jewish prophecy, and I would like to believe in another,
by Jesus, which I would understand about the churches: it is said that Jesus
told his disciples that Satan is to sift among them, but then Jesus looked to
stumbling Peter whom he had just rebuked, and said "Peter, I have prayed for 
you, that your faith may not fail. That when you have turned around, you may
strengthen your brothers." I have hope that we shall turn around from our
terrible historical sins, so that we may strengthen our brothers.

						David Harwood