Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 alpha 4/15/85; site sdcc6.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc6!ix415 From: ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Message-ID: <2049@sdcc6.UUCP> Date: Thu, 2-May-85 17:25:40 EDT Article-I.D.: sdcc6.2049 Posted: Thu May 2 17:25:40 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 4-May-85 09:12:27 EDT References: <-442300@ucla-cs.UUCP> <7600009@hpfcly.UUCP> <1928@sdcrdcf.UUCP> <1932@sdcrdcf.UUCP> Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Lines: 80 Summary: What we can know, ??Faith in the Word of God, which word?? In article <1932@sdcrdcf.UUCP>, tonym@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Tony Martinez) writes: > I'm sorry that Rick misunderstood the point I was trying to get across. > I did not say that the revealed word of God is not essential to our > learning. On the contrary, the scriptures are one of God's greatest > blessings. My whole discussion was based on the assumption that a person > did not yet know the truth... But the only way he could find out > what was from God would be through prayer, and having God reveal to him, by > the Holy Ghost, which was true. This is my whole point. A person could > study and read these books all of their lives, but > until one recieves from God a witness of the truth, that person will NEVER > know truth from error. > Well if I missed the point of your first article, I still disagree with the point of this article so I'll either start over (or continue, however you want to see it) with my complaints of your idea of how we as people gain enlightenment and find truth. Not to make it sound so esoteric, this "search for truth", but again you've said that the only way for a person to come to know anything about God (i.e. the "truth") it must come from personal revelation from God to that person. While you've qualified it to people who don't have faith in the word of God (something you do and a point I'll get to in a minute) you still say that they need some supernatural witness from God (by the way, what is this witness?). But the Bible, while it does say that God is responsible for our salvation and the source of truth, does *NOT* say that even unbelievers cannot find out the truth. Often throughout the Gospels, Christ makes reference to the hardness of men's hearts and to ears being closed, but equally often he makes statements like, "Him who has ears, let him hear." People in the New Testament (many of the people Christ healed) immediately came to saving faith in Him because of His words. Unless you want to say that Christ is that touch of God and that He is God (which I know you don't) than how do you account for that? And again we come to the question of God having prepared man to receive this truth. You say that God has to tell men that they have found the truth, but the Bible says that, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Even with your change in topics, the verses in Romans 1:14-24 still refute your statements. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness in men who *suppress* the truth in unrighteousness. For that which is known about God is evident within them for God made it evident to them." How much clearer can it be. God's truth has been revealed to man through supernatural means once already, the divine life of Christ and the divine inspiration of the scriptures. God has not promised any more divine revelations. The comment you made in your article (about having faith in the word of God) I wanted to question before I finished. The Bible says that whoever adds one word to the revelation contained in this book shall be accursed (Revelation something, see Charly Wingates posting for the verse). I gave you all of those quotes from the last time about the word of God but the Mormons have freely and libeally gone away from the Bible's teachings. If you feel that Christians have blown what Christ taught then say that, but don't claim that you still believe the Bible. You don't believe that Christ *is* God (John 1:1,8:58,10:32), that salvation comes through grace and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and that there is only one God (numerous verses throughout Isaiah). Your theology is a conglomeration of the teachings of Joseph Smith mixed with divine revelations spawned by the United States Government prompting God to make a "holy revelation" (i.e. polygamy, blacks as partors) and in no way to do you accept the Bible as the authoratative word of God which it claims to be. If you wish to follow a man who created languages that don't exist (old egyptian) and said that Christ was an arian (A jew from Galilee an arian??) and used magic sunglasses from God to translate these mystical texts be my guest but *DO NOT* say that you still have faith in the word of God. Not to be overly harsh, but the only faith you can have that comes from the Bible is that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all un-godliness and unrighteousness in men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature wrather than the creator who is blessed forever, amen." Rick Frey (ix415@sdcc6.UUCP) "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks and their foolish hearts were darkened."