Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site unc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!fsks From: fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Interpreting Antisemitism Message-ID: <170@unc.UUCP> Date: Wed, 8-May-85 00:12:08 EDT Article-I.D.: unc.170 Posted: Wed May 8 00:12:08 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 8-May-85 06:27:38 EDT References: <123@unc.UUCP> <140@unc.UUCP> Reply-To: fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) Organization: CS Dept., U. of N. Carolina at Chapel Hill Lines: 77 Summary: >> > Yitzchok Samet >> Frank Silbermann > Yitzchok Samet Frank Silbermann In article samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) writes: >> >4) The key point I tried to emphasize was that there is a >> >religious dimension which adds perspective to our understanding >> >of antisemitism, and that an effective solution to the problem >> >must recognize that we invite it by assimilating. This adds an >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >important dimension to our understanding of Nazism, one which has >> >been neglected, perhaps because it is so disturbing. (Y. Samet) > >> What exactly do you mean by assimilation? Are you saying that Jews >> who eat pork and don't wear hats should feel guilty for the deaths >> of the six million? As far as I know, this type of assimilation >> is a recent phenomenon. Perhaps 150 years old. Anti-semitism is >> much older. How does your theory explain: >> >> The massacres at the hands of the crusaders 900 years ago? >> The expulsion from England 700 years ago. >> The massacres in Germany at the time of the Black Plague? >> The Edict of Expulsion in Spain 500 years ago? >> The hundreds of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe who >> were murdered 300 years ago during the Ukranian >> rebellion against Poland. >> (Frank Silbermann) >This major theme, that our security is tied to our allegiance to >the Torah, is reiterated in the prophets and the sages. However, >one may have to be a prophet, or a great sage, to relate specific >Divine retributions to specific sins. However, this does not stop >us from recognizing, in general, that Divine retribution or >chastisement is behind major catastrophes. Also, some Rabbis feel >that they can extract general object lessons from something like >the holocaust. > >1) You asked what I meant by assimilation in the above quote. I >mean, in a general sense, embracing foreign ideologies and >practices (idolatry in Biblical times) and drifting away from the >Torah. (Y. Samet) I see two kinds of assimilation. One where Jews try to redefine the Law (in the case of Reform Judaism and "Humanistic Judaism") and another where Jews simply reject Judaism in general. In this discussion do you make any distiction between the two? For instance, if a baptized Jew remains a (apostate) Jew, and Jewishness is hereditary, then Spain and South America is FULL of Jews who don't even realize it (descendants of the Marranoes). They don't seem to be suffering from anti-semitism. By your theory, I suppose if Russia and the U.S. destroy each other, then it will be because of the Jewish assimilation in both nations. >2) A major source for the theme I put forth is found in parshas >be'chukosai (Lev. 26). (Y. Samet) Doesn't this passage also explain the GOOD FORTUNE that is supposed to befall the Jews who DO keep the covenant? During the holocaust, the frum were attacked at least a much as the apicursim. And even if we all do become frum again, like in the middle ages, well, we didn't have it so good even then. If anti-semitism is divine retribution, then maybe the whole rabbinical tradition was a mistake. Maybe we should go back to the way we were before there was anti-semitism. Maybe we should all become Sadducees and offer sacrifices at backyard alters. One reason for the heavy assimilation in the US and Russia is that many Jews are FED UP with this kind of "divine retribution." Any good animal trainer knows that you get better results using rewards for proper behavior than with punishments for incorrect behavior. Punishments lead to DIFFERENT behavior, not necessarily the DESIRED behavior. If anti-semitism is divine retribution, then why is God so clumsy with it? Frank Silbermann