Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site uscvax.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!uscvax!baparao From: baparao@uscvax.UUCP (Bapa Rao) Newsgroups: net.nlang.india Subject: Re: In defense of caste-based reservation (Loooong!) Message-ID: <271@uscvax.UUCP> Date: Mon, 6-May-85 18:35:53 EDT Article-I.D.: uscvax.271 Posted: Mon May 6 18:35:53 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 10-May-85 21:01:37 EDT References: <403@sftri.UUCP> <1638@ut-sally.UUCP> <189@uscvax.UUCP> <1693@ut-sally.UUCP> <238@uscvax.UUCP> <343@t12tst.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: CS&CE Depts, U.S.C., Los Angeles, CA Lines: 110 It's lonely at the top dept: > It seems to me that Bapa Rao's observations (which,I must admit are rather > well put and have a certain plausibility in a purely theoretical sense > ... might appeal to the arm chair spinner of theories) can be summarised > as follows (My comments are within brackets) : > This has GOT to be fame. My works are now being interpreted by the scholars, and I can't even understand the interpretations. From being mere random net postings, my writings have moved up into the serious Literature bracket. Talk about bracket creep! :-) > 1.Your own personal beliefs and conduct however noble are of no importance > compared to the historical position of the social group you happened to be > born in ---[ The best defence of caste organization of society I have ever seen. > A person who believes this should love the caste system]. > > 2.Persons who profess to be concerned about merit,competence and talent are > merely aggrieved over lost caste privileges and their arguments can be ignored > as insincere.[I would think that any argument needs to be met on its own > grounds and its validity has nothing to do with the emotional or psychological > state of its proponent but for someone who believes in point 1 (see above) this > may not be obvious] > > 3.A majority driven to frenzy by a charismatic thug is capable of great atro- > -cities and the solution is to perpetrate non-violent but very real injustices > upon huge segments of minorities.----[The problem of harijans who have been > oppressed in the past of course needs to be tackled systematically and > vigorously. The speed and felicity with which under-privileged people are > brought into the mainstream will determine the success of our society.But > undermining sensible concepts like merit and talent is not the answer.Education,financial help,economic development,social propaganda and religious reform are > the steps that will really work in the long term.Counter-oppression,appealing > only to revenge, has given rise to a whole generation of cheap politicians who > will never give up their power base in caste oriented politics.Would you like to live in a society where incompetence rules and nobody knows what he is doing ? Witness Amin's Uganda.] > > . > e > -term solutions > -- > Raghu Seshadri Raghu old chap, I really don't know what to reply to all this since I didn't say any of this stuff, certainly not the way you chose to put it. All the sensible arguments in favor of C.B.R.s have been made by my fellow-members of the non-verkrampte minority, Messrs. rajeev@sftri and nvramakrishna@wattdaisy in much more eloquent fashion than I can hope to muster. (Don't you believe it, Rajeev, I included you out of sheer politeness! :-) ) However, PURELY out of some abstract theoretical arm-chairy objection to having one's statements grotesquely misinterpreted, let me repeat the gist of what I have been trying to convey: 1. Wrongs perpetrated by the caste system can only be redressed by addressing oneself to the specific castes that have been wronged. This doesn't mean that I support the caste system. I am vehemently opposed to the idea. It is just that I don't understand how to persuade a Backward caste person to instantly accept the idea of a casteless society (amounting to an unequal freeze) when his caste is backward precisely because of the caste system, and will continue to remain backward even after the upper castes proclaim a casteless society. 2. I don't believe that the choice in India is between a Utopian meritocracy on the one hand, and C.B.R. based national mediocrity on the other hand. There is a great deal of mediocrity in India (which is why we are a poor country) and a lot of it can be attributed to the caste system (not C.B.Rs!) in which there is wholesale and vicious oppression of the human spirit and no cross-fertilization of ideas between the various castes. I stated clearly that it should be possible to have an honest C.B.R. system whereby quality of training is not compromised. The current C.B.Rs are considered to be handouts both by the upper and backward castes. They are, and should be treated as, challenges and opportunities to excel (Gospel of Reagan? Like all platitudes, it happens to be trivially true.). Removal of C.B.Rs doesn't guarantee an end to mediocrity; C.B.Rs are (if at all) not necessarily the only source of mediocrity. 3. As a group of mostly upper caste Hindus, the people on the net have been generally expressing attitudes and ideas that typify their less restrained brethren (and sistren?) back home, who'd rather say it with kerosene. We tend to stereotype the BCs (There is nothing I can add to Rajeev's excellent encapsulation of the concept of stereotyping); we fail to see the issue from their viewpoint; we take some arbitrary lofty "moral" position and smugly assume automatically that we (as upper caste persons) have the power to impose that view on the BCs. It rarely occurs to us that it is not enough to convince ourselves of the "rightness" of our moral position, it is in fact the aggrieved party in the matter (the BC person) who should be listened to, and it is in fact the upper caste person that needs to show some good faith. Incidentally, there is nothing hypothetical or theoretical about trying to place oneself in the other guy's shoes; if you find out how much they pinch, you might understand why the guy is jumping up and down. 4. Most of our so-called analysis of the C.B.R. issue seen here and elsewhere can be safely dismissed as pious self-justification on the part of the upper castes. Admittedly, ideas should be considered regardless of their origin, but in this particular case I believe that people's arguments tend to skirt the hard issues, precisely because of their motivations. If we share a genuine interest in the survival of India and her development into a strong and powerful nation, we should (as upper-caste middle-income Hindu men for the most part) take a hard look at our attitudes and exactly what it is we want our relationship with the poor, the lower caste, the Muslim, the Sikh and other Indian groups who seem to be saying that they have a problem. If we don't listen to the more reasonable elements of these communities and work things out in good faith, we will end up having to deal with (there's that name again) the Bhindranwales. As Malcolm X said to America about Dr. Martin Luther King: (Not an exact quote) "You have a choice: you deal with this brother today, or you'll have to deal with me tomorrow". Malcolm was a man of integrity who felt compelled to issue a warning; most radicals would rather see the moderate factions fail. --Bapa Rao.