Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 alpha 4/15/85; site sdcc6.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc6!ix415 From: ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Jews, Christians, and Mormons Message-ID: <2074@sdcc6.UUCP> Date: Wed, 15-May-85 02:42:43 EDT Article-I.D.: sdcc6.2074 Posted: Wed May 15 02:42:43 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 17-May-85 01:20:47 EDT References: <1537@aecom.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Lines: 93 Summary: What Christians have done to the OT In article <1537@aecom.UUCP>, berger@aecom.UUCP (Mitchell Berger) writes: > I've been watching the recent attacks on the Mormon faith. I don't > understand one thing... What's the difference between what the Christians > did the the OT, and what the Mormons did to the NT? > Glad you asked that. The Mormons have taken the Net Testament and added to it with various writings from Joseph Smith, assorted other Mormon theologians and scriptures supposedly given from God. These additional teachings *BLATANTLY* contradict the message given by the writers of the New Testament. You are probably saying that that is exactly what Christians have done to the Old Testament, but I will try to show that the New Testament does not contradict the Old Testament, but as Christ claims, it is the fulfillment of it. > Ken, there *are* contradictions between the OT and the NT. Where does it say > that Gd has a son (other than Adam)? In Isaiah 7:14 it says that a virgin shall bear a child and he should be called Immanuel. Immanuel means God with us (literally God or Jehovah with us). Since there is only one God, who else can this child be but God? In Isaiah 9:6 it says, "For unto us a child is born: ... and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God" Who else can be called The Mighty God without it being blasphemy other than God Himself? Isaiah clearly prophesies that God promises to come to the earth in human form from Bethlehem, out of Galilee, of a virgin. > Where does it say that I must believe in this son in order to be "saved"? > Where does it use the phrase "salvation" altogether? Again, the book of Isaiah clearly and continually refers to God as the savior and redeemer of the nation of Israel. In Isaiah 43:3, "For I am the Lord your God, the Holy one of Israel, your Savior." Again in Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the Lord; and there is no Savior besides me." One more time in 43:14, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer." God continualy refers to saving the nation of Israel and that is why Christ was very specific in maiking the *EXACT CLAIMS* of God to make clear to everyone (especially the Jews) that He was claiming to be God in the flesh, the only Savior of Israel. In John 14:6, Christ says, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me." > Where does it refer to a second coming, or a first one that > did not succeed in unifying the Jews and bringing peace to the world? Isaiah, in the 53 chapter, prophesies about the coming of the redeemer, the "Righteous One" and it says that He will be beaten, abused and that "He was cut off from the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due." This doesn't sound like the peace that He tried to bring was accepted to kindly. The chapter goes on to say, "as a result of the anguish of His soul ... My servant will justify many." The peace that Christ offered and that Isaiah prophesied was not a ruling King that would crush all of Israel's physical enemies. It was one of peace in the broken relationship between man and God. > does it say that we will all burn in hell for sins someone else committed? God doesn't need to accuse you of someone else's sins, the Old Testament says that we all have enough of our own. In Genesis, during the time of Noah, God described the state of mankind, "And God looked upon the earth and behold, for it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth." Are you really going to say that we're better people now? That the accusation leveled against Noah's generation doesn't hit us as well? Paul says it in the New Testament quite clearly, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) > Where does it refer to a Gd who is not "One and there is no oneness like his" Again, as I said before, Christ claims to be that ONE God and agrees that there is no other God besides Himself. > What happened to all the commandments written in the OT? > Do you burn fires on the Sabbath? Do you eat pork? Do you wear tzitzit on all > four cornered garments? What about "thou shalt not stray from what your elders > teach you, neither right nor left"? Paul (a Pharisee it might be added) said that the Law served as a tutor to lead us to Christ. The law served only to show man his sin, Christ came to make atonement for that Sin and to show mankind how they had forsaken God's covenant. Christ says in Mathew 5:17,18 "Do not think I came to abolish the Law or the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished." > Do Christians deny the fact that all > the elders of the time denied the Jesus was the Messiah? We don't deny the fact, we just disagree with it. I believe that Christ not only claimed to be the Messiah, the promise for salvation to the Nations given to Abraham, but that He was the Messiah and that He was Immanuel, literally and truly God with us. Rick Frey (..ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix415) "The woman said to Him, 'I know that the Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes He will decleare all things to us. Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am He.'" (John 4:25,26)