Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site sfmag.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!mhuxm!sftig!sftri!sfmag!samet From: samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Controlling one's ([homo]sexual) urges and Halakha Message-ID: <571@sfmag.UUCP> Date: Sun, 19-May-85 13:13:53 EDT Article-I.D.: sfmag.571 Posted: Sun May 19 13:13:53 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 19-May-85 23:53:43 EDT References: <411@oakhill.UUCP> <564@sfmag.UUCP> <1672@cornell.UUCP> <254@unc.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Summit, NJ Lines: 41 > The Talmud recognises that there are people who cannot prevent themselves > from controlling some urges. In tractate Kiddushin, p. 40a, one reads: > R. Il'ai the Elder said: if a man sees that his desire > is conquering him, let him go to a place where he is unknown, > don black and cover himself with black, and do as his heart > desires [...] > This attitude does in no way make it "valid" to sin, yet shows more > understanding of human nature (hence compassion) than the above writer. > (M. Fingerhut) >> If the Talmud preaches tolerance for secret sinners, it does not lessen >> the sin. It merely states that the punishment to be delivered need not >> always be as strict as the punishment deserved. Ever heard of mercy? >> (F. Silbermann) After looking into the gemara quoted above it seems that the above writers have added interpretations which are not suggested by the gemara and not consistent with explanations of the rishonim (Rashi, Tosafos, Rabbeinu Chananal etc.) Specifically, the gemara quoted is not addressing the issues of compassion or tolerance for sinners, mercy, or reward and punishment. From both the context and the rishonim, it seems that R. Illai's advice is confined to the limited issue of how to avoid or minimize the sin of chilul Hashem. Going to a place where he is unknown and wearing black clothing may help someone to subdue his desire to sin. Even if this fails, the chilul Hashem is lessened since he is not noticed. (There are no references in the gemara to any halachic rulings which establish this opinion as normative.) An analogy might be advising a driver to how to avoid a crash, or minimize its impact, when his brakes fail and he loses control of his car. He should attempt to slow down by shifting gears and he should attempt to direct his car to a relatively safe place to minimize the crash. Such advice is unrelated to liability for poor, drunk, or reckless driving, improper car maintenance etc. Punishment, blame, compassion, tolerance, and mercy are separate issues. Yitzchok Samet