Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site lzwi.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!mtuxo!pegasus!lzwi!cja
From: cja@lzwi.UUCP (C.E.JACKSON)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Re: \"Why not send the men home?\"
Message-ID: <134@lzwi.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 13-May-85 14:57:30 EDT
Article-I.D.: lzwi.134
Posted: Mon May 13 14:57:30 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 14-May-85 20:28:38 EDT
References: <1848@decwrl.UUCP> <423@sftri.UUCP> <1467@reed.UUCP> <431@sftri.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft
Lines: 85

> What about them?  As far as I'm concerned, men who abuse these
> others in their life should receive as much attention as we can give
> them (attention either in the form of therapy or lock them up-- I'm
> not sure if this sort of behavior can be cured-- in any case, such
> occurrences should be dealt with in short order).  

A study performed by the Minneapolis police department
recently showed that abusive men were far less likely to
become repeat offenders if they spent the night (at least) in
jail & were prosecuted. The police theorized that this occurred 
because abusive men think that they have some sort of "right" to abuse "their"
women. When the society (in the form of the law) stepped in &
officially & undeniably asserted that men did not have that
"right," the abusive men were willing to listen.

> You know what really burns me about this whole thing?  The original
> proposal that started this whole thing was made (I assume) in all
> seriousness.  Yet it is (at least, to me) absurd.  Yet there has not
> even been one article in this group authored by a woman that treats
> this proposal as anything other than serious.  The article I'm
> replying to refers to "doing something" with men.  Is this what you
> people really feel?  

I, for one, have IMMENSELY enjoyed seeing the shoe on the other foot.
For years, women have been explicitly & implicitly told that
rape is their fault & that they must never be without male
"protection" (from other men!). Of course, as the discussion
above re: domestic violence suggests, the men many women look
to (or are instructed to look to) are the ones least qualified
to give it. In terms of violence, there is no getting
around the fact that men don't treat women very well at all.

I would suggest, Mr. Modig, that at least some of the women
are half-serious & for good reason. When Golda Meir was
premier of Israel, a Cabinet member [seriously] suggested that
women be kept off the streets after sundown to cut down on
the incidence of rape. Meir suggested keeping the men off the
streets since they were the ones doing the raping. The subject
was not brought up again. 
The woman who submitted her sister's suggestion did so in
response to a posting that suggested women caused men to
commit sins (in their own minds, at least) at work.
He suggested prohibiting women from working with men.
Many people on the net were a bit smug about the fact that the
person who wrote the letter was Arabic. But for
centuries, Western men have been talking about "doing something
with women" and the "woman question." How could any woman who
knew her sex's history resist discussing the idea of a male
curfew seriously & in front of men? We've had to endure over
5000 years of subjugation & here you guys squirm over a little
discussion on a computer network. Tsk, tsk.
Aren't we supposed to be the "weaker" sex? If we could take it
for 5000 years, why can't you stand to read about it for a
month or so?

>Do you women all really feel SERIOUSLY that
> such a curfew would be a good idea, or at least worth trying?

If you think you are going to get all women to agree on
anything any more than you can get all men to agree on
anything, you're crazy.
I think there's a certain sort of poetic justice to the idea
of not letting men out on the streets. I also don't think it
would be practical, nor is it, in some absolute sense, just.
I hope that makes you feel better.

>... an apparently serious discussion on the net proposing
> that women who are raped are "asking for it"??

When we can still hear such proclamations from individual
police officers & society as a whole, why should we have to
endure one on the net? But where else could YOU (or any other
man) hear a discussion of male curfews? Don't tell us to put
ourselves in your place--if you thought about it, you'd
realize that we just forced you to put yourself in ours.
And THAT is a rare occurrence in a country where 33% of
college freshman would rape a woman if they thought they could
get away with it & one out of 3 women will be victims of rape
before they die.

> Mark Modig

C. E. Jackson
...ihnp4!lznv!cja (for reasons too silly to explain,the address above 
[lzwi] is incorrect--don't use it)