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From: ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Re: Re: \"Why not send the men home?\"
Message-ID: <1536@reed.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 15-May-85 14:58:36 EDT
Article-I.D.: reed.1536
Posted: Wed May 15 14:58:36 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 17-May-85 00:16:56 EDT
References: <1848@decwrl.UUCP> <423@sftri.UUCP> <1467@reed.UUCP>, <431@sftri.UUCP> <480@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> <435@sftri.UUCP>
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon
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> > >You know what really burns me about this whole thing?  The original
> > >proposal that started this whole thing was made (I assume) in all
> > >seriousness.  Yet it is (at least, to me) absurd.  Yet there has not
> > >even been one article in this group authored by a woman that treats
> > >this proposal as anything other than serious.  The article I'm
> > >replying to refers to "doing something" with men.  Is this what you
> > >people really feel?  Do you women all really feel SERIOUSLY that
> > >such a curfew would be a good idea, or at least worth trying?  
> 
> Well, actually this was hashed over a while back when the subject of
> walking down deserted streets came up.  There were a lot of men who
> basically said women shouldn't be out at late hours, alone on dark
> streets, etc., but there were also a lot of male respondees who were
> more sympathetic.  And, anyway, [here we go again] *men* do not
> propose such a thing.
> > 
> > Women are the *victims* here, and the best suggestion that men have come
> > up with is "if you don't want to be hassled, don't go anywhere where men
> > might hassle you."
> 
> Not so fast, not so fasssst!  You think that because a (relatively) 
> small number of men commit almost all of the violent crimes in America
> that all men should be subject to this just to make sure you get
> them all?  Sounds like you haven't been a victim long enough if
> you're willing to inflict the same situation on someone else who is
> also innocent.
> 

What bothers me about this latest comment by Mark is the
assumption that "innocence" equals not-crime-committing, and
that "a (relatively) small number of men commit almost all of
the violent crimes in America."

First of all, someone else cited the statistic that 33% of all
male college freshmen/students would rape if they were certain
they would get away with it.  Secondly, most police bureaus and
crime statisticians agree that between 1 and 3 in 10 of all
domestic violence is reported, leaving the other 70-90%
unreported.  I think it is indisputable that more domestic
violence is committed by husbands on wives than the other way
around. (I may be wrong and you may wish to dispute it, but...)

These two things in combination make me feel that probably that
"(relatively) small number" -- relative to what????! -- is
actually a relatively large number of men, who regularly or
irregularly beat their wives or girlfriends, subject their
female coworkers to harassment, abuse women verbally on the
street believing themselves to be complimenting her on her
sexual attractiveness, pressure dates into putting out
sexually, or, more infrequently, go so far as to
actually rape or assault a woman not their wife or girlfriend.

I think the problem is less the actual number of rapists --
admittedly pretty damn large at this point -- but the number of
men who *think* they have the right to demand sex of an SO, or
who derive pleasure from rape fantasies, or who in any way
violate a woman's privacy of mind or body unasked.  Until the
thinking changes -- and maybe a curfew would put the shoe on the
other foot, though I doubt it -- men are going to continue to
rape and be self-righteous about it.  That's why I would
seriously consider the curfew suggestion.

Now, about the "innocent male victims" accusation:  If women are
guilty of inviting rape merely by going out on the street at
night...maybe men should be guilty by association too.  Right
now, men have a lot more political and economic power than women
in general.  Does that mean they support the current situation,
and the current rape statistics?  Probably not, but still...

I would like to say I apologize for offending, but I hope I've
made at least one person think hard.

Ellen Eades