Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site spar.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!decwrl!spar!ellis From: ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: "Why not send the men home?" Message-ID: <249@spar.UUCP> Date: Fri, 17-May-85 14:55:29 EDT Article-I.D.: spar.249 Posted: Fri May 17 14:55:29 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 19-May-85 08:04:31 EDT References: <1848@decwrl.UUCP> <423@sftri.UUCP> <1467@reed.UUCP> <431@sftri.UUCP> <134@lzwi.UUCP> <691@burl.UUCP> Reply-To: ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA Lines: 94 >> Aren't we supposed to be the "weaker" sex? If we could take it >> for 5000 years, why can't you stand to read about it for a >> month or so? > >If you have been dealing with it for 5000 years, many foundations on aging >would *love* to speak with you. YOU did not suffer 5000 years of >subjugation. If you are going to wear a badge of your suffering, at least >make it your own. I suspect your wisdom derives from many hours spent in men's locker rooms. Such compassion for a problem that is the source of unceasing anxiety and hindrance of others besides yourself deserves comment. Your insight is all the more remarkable appearing in what is purportedly a forum for the discussion of women's problems. Geoff, every woman you meet wears the scars of the kind of subjugation being discussed here. (5000 years? maybe 3000000?) Physical attack, especially rape, and other forms of intimidation have been the unceasing concern of women since before history began. Simply BEING a women implies constant vigilance and permanent loss of freedom on a scale few men seem unable to fully appreciate. Or, in your omniscience, do you deny that what prevents women from walking alone at night may somehow be part of a more general and inclusive syndrome that is responsible for the suspicion women experience when meeting unfamiliar men, the preprogrammed feelings of inadequacy in stereotypically male endeavors, and a general predisposition to timid and submissive nature? This stereotypical behavior -- partly commonsense wisdom derived from the trauma of generations -- has literally been bludgeoned into women over the millenia by MEN. Insecurity, fear, loss of freedom, suspicion, paranoia -- and the very hostility expressed by the article you were responding to -- all are part of the deep scars on womankind that you so lightly dismiss. Geoff, it's very difficult to be polite to you. Your flippant indifference would indicate that you don't care because you are not a likely victim -- after all its not YOUR freedom that is being circumscribed, so why worry, huh? >A women's situation varies in degree, but not in kind. We are truly fortunate to have in our presence a man who is able to experience the subjective states of women. No wonder you do not need to hear what women say. >It is a sad commentary on freshmen that 33% of college freshmen SAY they >would rape a woman, but most of that is bravado, showing off for their >buddies, etc. (although I have a difficult time understanding that point >of view, I know it is prevalent)... Do you mean to attribute this statistic to peer group pressure? If so, I fail to see why that is any consolation to women. Instead, this would appear to argue in favor of locking up men at night, lest they band together into violent unthinking gangs. >Projections like 'one out of 3 women will be victims of rape before they die' >are inflamatory, but unrealistic. How are these victims spread out...? >This is not meant to justify anything, but just to point out that if you >are a woman reading this, your odds are very likely much lower than the >1 in 3 mentioned ... What the hell are remarks such as these doing in this newsgroup? Are you trying to perpetuate this ghastly problem? Would you prefer that people not be inflamed? What do YOU have to gain by maintaining the status quo -- a world wherein the perpetual intimidation of women is accepted as normal? Among the women I know, one in three sounds like a conservative figure. My estimate would be more like 50%. And of my female friends who were raped, most of them said they did not report the attack. Again, I suspect Geoff's thinking comes more from men's locker rooms than from listening to real live women. In any case, I'm fairly confident the likelihood for our `nice' middle class women reading this article is way above 10%, and it might be higher than 33%, for all anyone knows. Not inflammatory? More revealing is Geoff's attitude that readers have no need to be concerned about what is happening to those not here. I wonder how badly off women in `rough' neighborhood must be, if the AVERAGE is supposedly one in three? But who cares? Those people are not present. Why should we worry about them? Carry this thinking one step further. The average for men is probably less than one in a hundred. Consequently, Geoff need not worry. -michael