Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 exptools; site ihlpa.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie From: zubbie@ihlpa.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Re: sexist language/bad attitudes Message-ID: <241@ihlpa.UUCP> Date: Mon, 20-May-85 20:46:45 EDT Article-I.D.: ihlpa.241 Posted: Mon May 20 20:46:45 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 22-May-85 01:05:48 EDT References: <496@ucsfcgl.UUCP>, <857@druxo.UUCP> <499@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 89 > From: nap@druxo.UUCP (ParsonsNA), Message-ID: <857@druxo.UUCP>: > >> the default gender is assumed to male unless the expected gender for > >> the description is female. This must make it pretty hard for male nurses > >> and scretaries. Almost as hard, in fact, as it probably is for female > >> truck drivers, fire fighters, police officers, ... > > > >Not quite...men have greater "permission" from society to do what pleases > >them, even when it goes against societal norms. > > > >Nancy Parsons > > I'm not sure I agree with Nancy here. I think there are *tremendous* > pressures against males doing pretty much anything that's "typically > female". Women are free to wear clothes designed for men as well as > those designed for women. Men, on the other hand, simply cannot wear > a skirt and sandals to the office on a hot summer day. And I imagine > there are really serious pressures on male nurses and secretaries. >....................... > > I think some of this is related to what was mentioned in an earlier > posting, i.e., that it's healthy for men to want to be men and it's > healthy for women to want to be men too. People can understand why a > woman would want to adopt typically male roles, but it's hard to > imagine why a man would want to be adopt typically female roles. > There's also a practical issue here. (Stereo)Typically female jobs > pay a helluva lot less than (stereo)typically male jobs. It *is* > kind of hard to understand why men would prefer them (with the poss- > ible exception of homemaker - that one is at least quite rewarding). > > Anyway, I think there's a *very* pervasive pressure against men > "relinquishing their masculinity", and, stronger sex tho they may be > (:-), I doubt many could withstand it. > > -- > > --JB "The giant is awake." > > Disclaimer? Who wud claim dis? *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** About 10 years ago I came across a situation which even more strongly points up this inability of even intelligent groups to deal with those individuals who would *cross the line * so to speak. An individual ( we can call him fizbie ) who was well liked and respected by all his fellow workers (mostly men at that time as it was a rather technical environment) and recognized as extremely able and knowledgeable decided to change his sex to female. (I'm not going to go into that part of it except to say it was only new news to the people he worked with) Obviously fizbie expected some flack but he (now she) had pretty well managed to get the cranial appendage on straight. The two noteable reactions at the time were: 1) From males there was a general disbelief that someone as smart as fisbie would want to become a member of a second class class of workers (fisbie stayed on the same job however slowly management tried to steer her into the more clerical and less demanding (mentally) aspects of the job) since there "Just wasn't much place for women in that line of work". 2) From the few females already in that line of work and from the other females in surrounding workspace a new friendship and respect was developed for this individual who had previously been just *one of the guys* to someone who really had the courage to stand up for what they believed in. Fizbie's main accomplishment before being driven out of her job by discrimination and perhaps sabotage was to train 18 women into the men only world they worked in . Today all 18 of those women have risen into one type of management position or another while the males (some of which fisbie also trained) are still plugging along just as they had been when OLE FISBIE was just *one of the guys*. If I could locate fisbie today I imagine she would be doing as well although maybe not because she always seemed to be ready to champion unfashionable causes. Jeanette L. Zobjeck ihnp4!ilhpa!zubbie ================================================================================Any opinions expressed in this heyar posting belongs to me pardner AN DOONNNNN YYYOUU FERGIT IT!!!!!! ================================================================================