Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site watdcsu.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!watnot!watdcsu!dmcanzi From: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) Newsgroups: net.women,net.politics Subject: Re: Ed Hall speaks his mind. Message-ID: <1396@watdcsu.UUCP> Date: Wed, 22-May-85 00:49:25 EDT Article-I.D.: watdcsu.1396 Posted: Wed May 22 00:49:25 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 22-May-85 02:40:28 EDT References: <385@ttidcc.UUCP> <305@mhuxr.UUCP> <327@h-sc1.UUCP> <2473@randvax.UUCP> <1377@watdcsu.UUCP> <400@rtech.ARPA> Reply-To: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario Lines: 59 Xref: watmath net.women:5177 net.politics:9056 Summary: Oops... went off on a tangent In article <400@rtech.ARPA> jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) writes: >> In article <2473@randvax.UUCP> edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) writes: >> > ...there are a couple of people who are making the outrageous and >> >dangerous claims that: >> > ... >> > 2. It is wrong for women to be proud when they manage to overcome >> > discrimination. >> > ... >> >Except for one or two mild postings, the net is *silent* in response >> >to these and other such claims! >> > >... >2) This paraphrase is a little misleading. Ed Hall's argument was that it is > wrong for women to be proud of other women who overcome discrimination, > when men don't feel proud of other men's accomplishments. That was *my* statement, which Ed Hall paraphrased... > First, I don't > think it is anyone's business how someone else feels, especially when those > feelings are positive. Second, it is strange to me that someone can't > understand pride in another person with whom you identify. Taking second first, I once felt that way myself. I've thought it over, and tried carefully to define to myself the nature of that pride. Then I tried to decide for myself whether it made sense for me to feel that way. And I couldn't convince myself that it did. One problem I came up against was that I have no way of being sure that the feeling of a woman who is proud to be a woman (or proud of the accomplishments of other woman) was feeling the same thing I felt when I used to proud of my nationality. Returning to first, and what business is it of mine what others feel, especially if they are positive feelings: I had an ulterior motive. I don't feel that this is restricted to positive feelings. People can be manipulated by trying to make them feel guilty for the actions of other members of their race/sex/nationality. Also, it's commonplace among racists, sexists and patriots to blame an entire race, sex, or nation for the nasty actions of some members. I wanted to argue against the idea that there can be any validity to holding an entire group (eg. teenagers, Germans) guilty for the bad behavior of some members. This type of blaming is common among racists and nationalists, of course, but I also wanted to point out that this is also being done by some who call themselves anti-racists. For example, in discussions about affirmative action, slavery is often brought up as a justification for over-redressing the injustices against blacks caused by discrimination. But giving slavery as a reason for policies that are unfair to whites implies a belief that somehow the white people who will be hurt "deserve" it because of something other white people did. (Not all such arguments are pure exercises in guilt-making. Sometimes, in the middle of all the moral indignation, I find hidden rational, or at least rational-seeming, arguments.) -- David Canzi "The Indians got revenge on the white man. They gave him tobacco."