Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site burl.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!burl!geoff From: geoff@burl.UUCP (geoff) Newsgroups: net.women,net.flame Subject: Re: Discrimination Message-ID: <714@burl.UUCP> Date: Wed, 29-May-85 13:48:59 EDT Article-I.D.: burl.714 Posted: Wed May 29 13:48:59 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 1-Jun-85 10:29:25 EDT References: <260@ihlpa.UUCP> <591@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Technologies, Burlington NC Lines: 121 Xref: linus net.women:4946 net.flame:9350 > We live in an economy with a(n essentially) fixed number of jobs relative > to the population (i.e., the unemployment rate typically does not fluc- > tuate widely *over the long run*). Currently there is a group A that > holds proportionately more of the (fixed number of) jobs compared to all > other groups. Furthermore, there is an overwhelming domination of group > A in the higher paying jobs. For whatever reason, (discriminaton surely plays a big role), women are latecomers to the job market (at least in the numbers they are today). Do you really expect them to have suddenly made their way to the top of the ladder? After all, a lot of men who have been working for many decades are no where near the top of the ladder. > If other groups are going to increase their > representation in all levels of the job market (to the point of propor- > tionate equality) then, since the number of jobs is (essentially) fixed, > group A will in fact hold fewer of the total jobs, and will hold signi- > ficantly fewer of the higher paying jobs. (Note that "proportionate > equality" means that group A will now hold their *fair share* of the jobs.) Sounds fine to me. I expect it will happen (and it IS happening). I just object to people trying to help it along by discriminating. I am not sure of the source (I read them in a newspaper or magazine) which said that women now earn approximately one-third of the gross national product. Pretty impressive for an underprivilaged class. I also seem to recall that women now make up just over half of the work force. Also impressive. I can see the flames now -- half the workers make only one-third the income. True. It does fit with my earlier point though, that women are latecomers and are just beginning to work their way up. > > >This view brings discrimination down to a simpler descriptive > > > > SELFISHNESS > > I think selfishness is a part of it, but I think there's more to discri- > mination. I think there's also a large dose of ignorance (of the true > nature/potential of the other individual), along with a fair amount of > the fear and distrust (of the other's motives) which often accompanies > ignorance. Note that the more one discriminates, the more justified the > fear and distrust become ('cause the other folks are getting pretty d*mn > irate by now). This gives discrimination some of the characterisitics of > a self-fulfilling prophecy. Which makes it pretty tough to eradicate, > 'cause by the time you get around to ending it, parts of it may well have > validated themselves. (NOTE: I nevertheless believe it *must* be ended!!!) We are ALL selfish. After all, why should you be concerned if someone is selfish except that that leaves less for YOU? > > >This is a trait best observed in children. Not really. Look around you. > > > >I wonder - If the human race ever grows out of its childhood phase if > >this type of behavior will be either eliminated or controlled by a > >deliberate act of will? > > I sure hope so. I think we all hope so. I think that's why we're > discussing it here - to try to combine our wills to make a difference. Ok, you claim the human race is in a 'childhood phase' of development which it can 'grow out of'. First I disagree with your terms. After all, accepting the 'childhood' terminology implies that there is an 'adult' phase. I don't think the human race has changed markedly in its attitudes in the last millenia. We are more sophisticated now, we live in a different culture (made possible in a large part by the technology we now possess), and so on, but I think this is a patina and not a substantial change. Does 'childhood' not imply growth and development? Apologies if I am reading too much into your choice of words. I am not particularly thrilled with the way the human race acts; neither, obviously, are you. I wonder if we have the same idea, however, as to how it SHOULD act? What would be the adult phase? As defined by whom? We all do the things that we believe are good for us. Your argument presupposes (this is supposition that we are in a 'childhood' phase, which is not the way that we 'should' act) that other people are WRONG because they don't agree with YOU (your definition of an 'adult' phase). The same argument can be applied in reverse, of course. I do what I do and say what I say because I think they are right -- according to what I believe and the experiences I have had. I also realize that everyone else out there does the same thing -- based upon their experiences. So we all think we are right. If there is some 'correct' attitude then obviously some or all of us are wrong. (Yeah, I know -- it's me :-)) Most of this was directed at the first article (obviously) but in response to JB's, (partly because of the forgoing) I don't think we are going to combine our wills (because we all have a different idea of what SHOULD be) and I don't think we are going to make a difference (because the world, basically, doesn't give a damn {I especially like the fortune 'no matter how great your achievements nor how tragic your defeats, approximately 1 billion Chinese could care less' -- or something like that}). A defeatist philosophy? I certainly don't see it that way. Rather than try to change the world, which doesn't work very well because the world doesn't want to change, work on changing the things you CAN change. I find it more rewarding (and successful). >>jeanette zobjeck > > -- > > --JB Life is just a bowl. geoff sherwood (and every once in a while somebody flushes it) I believe I've passed the age Of conciousness and righteous rage {ain't cynicism grate?} I found that just surviving was a noble fight. I once believed in causes, too I had my pointless point of view -- And the world went on no matter who was wrong or right. Billy Joel, 'Angry Young Man'