Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 exptools; site ihdev.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!ihdev!rjv From: rjv@ihdev.UUCP (ron vaughn) Newsgroups: net.origins Subject: about origins... Message-ID: <246@ihdev.UUCP> Date: Thu, 30-May-85 23:40:13 EDT Article-I.D.: ihdev.246 Posted: Thu May 30 23:40:13 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 31-May-85 23:55:23 EDT Distribution: net Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 201 /* i tried sending this once, but it didn't seem to make it. sorry if a duplicate */ will the wonders of the net ever cease??? here it is, a late sunday evening on a holiday weekend. in between semesters, and no crushing deadlines at work. ahhhhh, time to relax and do nothing...... and what better way to do nothing than to put on a good CD, pour a fresh glass of tea, and go adventure hunting in the net. no, no, not the normal groups i read all the time. i love to go into a completely new group and spend 2-3 hours reading everything on the machine in the group. it's really fun, you see patterns of arguments, patterns of topics and on and on. you get two or three months of exchange crammed into two or three hours. try it sometime with a group you're not familiar with. so, what the hell is this guy rambling about, you're probably asking yourself? (if you haven't skipped out already!) i'll be honest, i've been on the net for a few years, and i have my set of groups i read. i never even gave origins a thought. (get ready to laugh) i thought origins was a place where people....well, figured out THEIR origins, "i'm half spanish, my last name is carlos, does anyone know of the family tree in northern mexico..." or something like that. pretty silly, huh? so it's a wonderful rainy night, the CD is at the good part of the CD (eagles, "lyin' eyes"), and the sun tea is just right. why not check out net.origins, see what these people do for kicks?? WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING??? it took me about three articles to finally say "oh my god, you have GOT to be kidding!" stop the CD. pour bourbon in the tea. hold the lightning. these.....adults are sitting here trying to convince each other about their beliefs of the origin of the earth, which leads to creationism vs good ol' science, evolution vs adam&eve etc. etc. it's almost like i opened a door to a room and saw a bunch of people (many i know, e.g. arndt and i are ol' flaming buddies -- we hate each other in a nice sort of way) engaging in a pie throwing contest. grown people with a pie in each hand standing on opposite sides of the room. each pie launched comes with a yell: - read GENESIS!!! you'll fry in hell you atheist commie! - oh yea?!? darwin disproved you before you were born!! - my butt! some scientist in england showed that making life isn't tough, it's *real* tough, so god did it. therefore you're wrong. - you're full of it. a scientist in arizona found a bone that disproved everything the scientist in england did, so YOUR wrong. /* n.b. neither of the last two pie tossers know shit from shinola about what either (unnamed) scientist did, they're both computer jocks with a passion for arguing and pop science - rjv */ - you don't believe in MY god, so you are wrong. you call yourself a christian? - being a christian doesn't mean you become brain dead, now does it?? - here, look at these 459 obscure quotes and references that prove i'm right. - what about my 692 obscure quotes that prove I'M right, huh? huh??? - so what. we asked a scientist to tell us EXACTLY how every step of evolution works from the first living cell to modern man, and he COULDN'T. he said "I CAN NOT". ha. ha-ha!!! see, see, you can't prove anything. - you call that evidence? why should my son go to a geology class in high school and study 2 million year old rocks from 8:30-9:20, then from 9:30-10:20 learn the earth is 6000 years old?? huh? does that make sense?? can you pull your head out and see your are wrong? it goes against everything in the book. are we supposed to throw everything else away and bow down to this unproven pile of... of... speculation?? - well listen here, bucko, maybe if we did throw everything away and started over we'd be better off! - sure, sure get off the topic. look, we're using computers, right? and some computers are round to make the wire connections shorter, because of speed of light limitations on electrons traveling, right? 186,000mps and all?? - what the hell does that have to do with you being wrong about that popycock called evolution?? - well, if you accept the speed of light, then that coupled with the fact we now receive light from stars XXXXX million light years away means they've been around at LEAST!!! XXXXX million years. argue your way out of that one, christianoid. /* all pie throwing stops. hmmmmmm this is a tough one. rjv */ - sure, the STARS were there, the source of the light, but the earth, the sink of the light, is only 6000 years old. ah ha!!! /* all the creationist pie throwers stop to pat themselves on the backs, forgetting about all the pies in their hands, and ruining each others suits - rjv */ - but all of this was done in 6 days! read GENESIS!!!!! - what if... god... made it appear as if they were XXXXX million years away? yes. yes!, that's it, god made the stars appear that way. - so god built everything, planted a wonderful curiosity about life and the universe in man, and then planted a billion booby traps to fool us if we looked around, like false star distances, and he buried those fossils. sure, sure, sounds great, you idiot. like he gave us an incredible sex drive and then tells us not to have sex until we're married???? ok, ok, enough. does any of this look familiar? seen yourself in there anywhere??? i am NOT going to sit here and say which side i feel is right or wrong. i simply can't believe you people actually argue over this. ok, here's a question, has ONE person, ONE, every said. "geee, i used to believe in XXXXXX, but your arguments have now made me believe in YYYYYY"??? ONE?? anybody?? i mean, outside of a lot of tossed pies, has this groups accomplished anything?? are creationist now more sympathetic towards the others?? vice-versa? are we ever going to see a headline: "NETTERS FIGHT IT OUT, XXXX GROUP WINS, ISSUE NOW SETTLED" one main theme i see in this group is a creationist comes out with his "proof", and the evolutionist tear it to shreds. evolutionists come up with their "proof" and the creationist deny it or call it inconclusive. the creationist proofs are easy to tear up, they almost always lead to a logical contradiction, and they normally go against all the other "hard" sciences (see high school class example above). the evolutionist proofs are easy to sluff off, they haven't fully absolutely proven that evolution is IT, with no doubts, no fuzzy spots in the picture. and they probably never will, but this is common in science.... so altogether this is like net.flame for lightweights, the topic is too damn easy: from either side, the other side is easy prey. i could tear up any creationist theory, and punch holes in the evolution theory. so could anyone else who wast the time to type it in.... one intersting thing i noticed, creationist often put down evolution theory evidence as inconclusive, not 'absolute proof', yet 80% of THEIR proof in creationism has nothing to do with "proof" or evidence, but belief. so, what does this all lead to? ron vaughn's advice for evolutionist: let's face it, you can show them every bone ever dug up, the won't believe you. show them a zillion books on geology, rock formations, take them out and show them a goddamn rock formation, point at it and say "THIS IS A 400,000 YEAR OLD ROCK, OK??" and they won't believe you. "god made that rock that way." and pooof, your evidence, as real and concrete as the rock in your hand, is not submitted for speculation. you can't prove evolution/big-bang etc. if they won't even accept simple jr. high geology facts. just accept that fact these people are out there, but not to many of them. joe schmoe doesn't understand or even care about evolution vs creationism. you average 'thinking' joe schmoe does understand, and accepts evolution as part of science, which he also accepts. the mentally awake part of the world is on your side. your right. ron vaughn's advice for creationist: let's face it, you can read the bible to them every day, teach them about christianity until you think they truly believe, but if you show them the scriptures and they dispute it, what can you do? you say "god created the earth, look, look right here.." and they say "no, no, you can't take that literally" and poooof! your beliefs mean NOTHING to them. if you don't have cold hard evidence, your ideas are not even submitted for speculation. and it can't be wishy-washy evidence, remember most scientist are NOT on your side. you can't prove creationism or existence of jesus or.... anything if the person doesn't first believe in the bible, god etc. you have to start there first. you're treating the symptoms, not the problem. scientific evidence for the creationism camp is far less than that for the evolution camp. if you make christians out of them first, THEN (and most likely ONLY then) you can show them you are right. ron vaughn's advice to both groups: i'm kind of ashamed of both sides of the house. you creationist are NOT going to convince a bunch of technical, educated people (most netters are) of your beliefs. a person is a christian or not, and you are not going to convert someone to christianity through e-mail. the rest of your are lightweight flamers -- picking on creationist is too easy. most of you who argue with creationist are here just for the sport of it, but your fishing for 3 pound bass with a 20 pound line. christians love to be martyrs, and you guys are here to pound nails in their little individual crosses. sucker. this group accomplishes the same thing as net.abortion: nothing. everyone talks/yells, nobody listens. everyone is set in their ideas, and everyone is trying to change the next guys ideas. do you people realize this and just keep on fighting?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so there you have it, my impression of what all of you originer's do. maybe i'm full of shit. maybe not. i would never read this group regularly -- like i said, it accomplishes nothing -- but i'll watch it for a while in case there are replies. hope you don't mind an outsider coming in and commenting on everything, but sometimes and outside view can shed some new light on a situation. hope this helps some.... welp, the eagles are over.... tea is down to small ice cubes.... still a good storm going on, however. fun evening, thanks for sharing it with me, type to you later. "for man is stupid, phenomenally stupid..." -- fyodor dostoevsky ron vaughn ...!ihnp4!ihdev!rjv