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From: ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: reply to Micha Berger, about 'throwing stones'
Message-ID: <2085@sdcc6.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 23-May-85 17:10:21 EDT
Article-I.D.: sdcc6.2085
Posted: Thu May 23 17:10:21 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 27-May-85 07:16:06 EDT
References: <2075@sdcc6.UUCP> <1417@mtx5b.UUCP>
Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center
Lines: 81
Summary: Reply to Mark Terrible about Gnosticism vs. Phariseeism

In article <1417@mtx5b.UUCP>, mat@mtx5b.UUCP (Mark Terribile) writes:
> 
> Jesus also followed the Law as set forth in the Torah, while urging us to
> a higher standard.  And the Lord's Prayer is a typically Jewish prayer.
> If Jesus did not believe that the things that the Law of Moses teaches are
> important, why did He tell us to pray in that manner, and for those things?
> 
I blew it by deleting what I had originally written, but I said that
Jesus denounced the Pharisees and Micha Berger said that Jesus said that
they were right about religion.  I'm not denying or saying in any way
that the law given by God is to be followed (as it applies i.e. kosher
laws etc.) but that has nothing to do with the Pharisees who even though
they had the law, they practiced only the parts of it that they chose.
Christ should tell us to pray in that manner and Christ did explain the
"true" nature of the Bible, but that doesn't in any way condone the
religious hypocrisy of the Pharisees.

RF:That's what Jesus taught?  No way.  Christ clearly says in John 15:5, "I
RF:am the vine, you are the branch; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he
RF:bears much fruit; for APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING."
> 
> Remember that first Jesus told us to love God completely, and then to love
> our neighbor as ourself.  These are the essential commandments.  The Good
> Samaritan is mistaken in his flawed theology, but in loving his neighbor
> he has followed God's requirements.
> 
I don't want to ever say that I disagree with the great commandments,
but you are oversimplifying what Christ said.  Christ also went on to
make God's requirement very clear, "For this is the will of my Father,
that every one who beholds the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM may have eternal
life." (John 6:40)

> Remember when Jesus and the disciples came across a man casting out devils
> in Jesus' name?  The disciples sought to silence the fellow.  Jesus told them
> not to, because the man was doing good works in the name of God.
> 
But then you have to go back to the example in Mathew 7 where people
came up to Jesus saying how they had performed miracles and cast out
demons in His name and He tells them to go away.  The context doesn't
allow escape into good works by supposedly emphasizing the more
essential characteristics of charity and love, it has been talking about
good vs. bad fruit but then it culminates in this analogy which makes
the point that works alone do not make up one's service to God.
> 
> But is it necessary that those for whom the sacrifice is offered should know
> of it?  Haven't you prayed for someone, and not told them?  Wouldn't you be
> blowing a trumpet for yourself if you did?  But keeping the prayer between
> yourself and God doesn't diminsish its value, does it?
> 
Back in John 6:40 Christ says that everyone who beholds the Son must
believe in Him.  In John 3:18-19 Christ says that the judgement of
mankind will be based upon their acceptance of Him. ("He who does not
believe in Him has been judged already because he has not believed in
the name of the only begotten Son of God.  And to make this point even
clearer, Paul, in Romans 1:14-25 gives a lengthy disourse on what we as
people already know and what we will be held accountable for.  Paul says
those who have not had the law will not be judged by the law, but to
those who have had the law (or the witness of Jesus Christ) they will be
judged upon what they know.
> 
> Getting tied up with the idea that knowledge is Salvation can lead you off
> to gnosticism.  Getting tied up with the idea that all you need to do is
> get enough good deed points on your scorecard will lead you in the direction
> of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned.  You must have the right reasons, and
> then you must act on them.  Knowledge will avail you nothing ... in fact it
> inreases your obligation.  ``Much will be demanded of him to whom much has
> been given.''

True to an extent.  Knowledge alone is worthless; the Bible says that
even the demons believe and they shudder.  But then to say that leaves
every good Samaritan on God's good side is equally as wrong.
Christianity isn't a case of what you do, it's a case of who you know.
"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God
and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)  While I completely
agree that knowledge alone is not the route, works, even with "good
intentions" (as the people in Mathew 7) are not the way either.  I
quoted it once, but the Bible says that this is the answer to eternal
life.  "I am the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN comes to the Father
but by ME."

			Rick Frey  (..ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix415)