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From: dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Mormons
Message-ID: <322@scgvaxd.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 29-May-85 17:02:10 EDT
Article-I.D.: scgvaxd.322
Posted: Wed May 29 17:02:10 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 30-May-85 09:22:47 EDT
References: <1922@decwrl.UUCP> <80@zinfan.UUCP>
Reply-To: dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich)
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA
Lines: 212
Summary: 


 After reading this reply to Ken Arndt's posting, I was compelled to make
 the following comments:

>1. You reject the need to ask God for confirmation of the truth of His word
>as recorded and interpreted by fallible men.  The assumption that the
>present Bible h.s been in its current form since it was passed down by word
>of mouth, then written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek and
>subsequently, English, is ludicrous!  Considering the wide variety of Bible
>translations, I suggest that a prudent person will study the Bible he/she
>possesses and then turn to God for confirmation of His word.

Your facts here are a little jumbled! That the scriptures were handed
down by word of mouth is the assumption! There are over 5000 manuscripts
(handwritten) of the New Testament, written in its original language
(Greek) that date as far back as the 4th century. Less than 1 per cent
textual corruption affecting not a single doctrine! Dead Sea scrolls dating
back to first century contain various portions of the Old Testament (Hebrew)
which confirm accuracy of copyists when compared to Massoretic manuscripts
of the Old Testament dating about 900 A.D.

>Obviously, one gets to KNOW this by studying the scriptures and then asking
>God to confirm the truth of what he/she has read.  No one can truly possess
> testimony of Christ and His ministry based solely upon the testimony of
>Others.  Your testimony must be based on personal experience, study, prayer
>And revelation or it will not withstand the batterings of a Godless world.

>Just as few rational persons demand that you accept the word of an
>`authority'' without confirmation, so we are exhorted to turn to the Lord
>in prayer to receive answers to our questions.  To quote a prophet whom you
>vilify ``Search the scriptures - search the revelations which we publish,
>and ask your Heavenly Father, in the names of His Son Jesus Christ, to
>manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His
>glory nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit.
>You will then know for yourselves and not for another.  You will not then be
>dependent on man for the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for
>speculation.''

 All very true except one thing I must add. The bible is not up for grabs
 for interpratation. As I have mentioned above, the New Testament documents
 are very reliable. The Word of God must be the final test for truth and
 the authority by which we stand upon. Subjective and experiential theology
 opens the door to chaos and confusion. Beyond the New Testament we have
 Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science, etc. There must be some
 criteria to determine which is right. They can't all be right since most
 contradict one another. Your statement, "One cannot accept the word of an
 authority without comfirmation", is true, but the application was wrong!
 The word of an authority would be a supposed prophet like Kimball, Mary
 Baker Eddy, Watchtower, the Pope, etc. Their words MUST be confirmed by
 the only reliable authority, The Bible!

 Peter confirmed this in his 2nd Epistle. He stated the fact that he was
 an eye witness to the majesty of Christ (referring to the Mount of
 Transfiguration) and then was careful to conclude, "But we also have
 the MORE SURE WORD of prophecy!"  In other words, Peter made his own
 subjective experience subordinate to the objective authority of scripture!

>Certainly God and Christ speak to those who listen.  But all people, unless
>they are chosen and ordained by God as prophets, receive revelation ONLY for
>themselves and their immediate families, not for the whole of mankind.  The
>choice of whether or not to share or repeat personal revelation, is of
>course up to the individual.

 Hebrews 1:1 says. "God who in times past spoke through the prophets, has in
 these times chosen to speak through His Son, Jesus Christ."

 God has given revelation to man three times. First, through Moses and Joshua,
 second, through Elijah and the prophets, and finally through Christ and the
 Apostles. The pattern has been established. Revelation, accompanied by
 confirming signs and wonders; then silence!

 God has recorded in His word all that man needs for Salvation and
 Worship. The Holy Spirit will lead us in our lives using the WORD
 to guide our paths.

 Can you imagine the confusion that would arise if God spoke directly to
 man today. What criteria could he possibly use to confirm that it is
 the voice of God. God ALWAYS confirms His revelations through specific
 signs and wonders.

>>6.  ``No I work with Mormans (sic).  They are swell people.  I like them a
>>lot . . . .  But they are wrong about God!  And cursed for it!''

>This sounds remarkably like the rationalizations Christians h.ve used for
>centuries to justify their unChristian treatment of other people.  For
>example, the never-ending and unjust persecution of the Jews has throughout
>history been prefaced by similar remarks.  Not to mention the American
>treatment of the native Indians, blacks, American Japanese and German
>descendants during WWII, Hispanics, etc, and the world-wide mistreatment of
>other minorities.  All prefaced by words which contain little of ``charity,
>the pure love of Christ.''  (Moroni 7:47, I Corinthians 13).

Actually, sometimes the truth sounds harsh but is best in the long run.
The BIBLE says things like, "The wounds of a friend are better than the
kiss of an enemy!, Open rebuke is better than secret love." And such
statements as, "Every mans way is right in his own eyes!, Have mercy
on some who are doubting, save others snatching them out of the fire, and
on some mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh!"

Lets not forget that Christ was crucified for telling people things that
they didn't want to hear but were the truth. Are you going to lump Him into
your above categories?

>My Revelations 22: 18-19 actually reads ``For I testify unto every man that
>heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto
>these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this
>book:
>
>And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
>God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy
>city, and from the things which are written in this book.''

>First, this book is written by the Apostle John.  It is a record of the
>revelations he received from Christ.  It is John who is actually writing
>these words.  Second, according to Bible scholars, this revelation was
>written sometime between A.D. 64 and 96.  John himself wrote another book, The
>Gospel According to St. John, much later.  Third, at that time the books of
>the Bible were not compiled in the same order that they are in the current
>Bibles.  Therefore, John was obviously warning against anyone adding to or
>subtracting from the revelations he had received and written while banished
>upon the Isle of Patmos.  This does not prevent God from adding to
>revelation any time he pleases!

 It is not the chronological order that is in question here. The book of
 Revelation is a very special book. John was told to write down the things
 which he has seen, the things which are and the things WHICH SHALL COME TO
 PASS. This groups the Book into three sections. The first is the actual
 vision that John had of Christ as recorded in chapter 1. Second, the
 things concerning the church as recorded in chapters 2 & 3. Finally, John
 recorded the things that would happen in the future. The future of the
 Jews, the church, and the Gentile non-believing world was given to John
 by Jesus Christ as recorded in the book of Revelation. From the church
 age, through the terrible judgements poured out on the world in chapters
 5 - 18, and finally the second coming of Christ, right on into the
 earthly Rule of Christ during the Kingdom Age (chapter 20), and into
 eternity. In other words, the prophecy has been delivered. From the time
 of John up to the very END. When the writer records his warning at the
 end of the book, he is warning people not to add to the PROPHECY of the
 book. Sure, there were other books written after Revelation. These were
 books of either an historical or corrective nature. The warning is directed
 to those who would add to the prophetic outcome determined in Revelation.
 In other words, the future of mankind and the world has been delivered
 through revelation and there is no need to add anything to it.

>Furthermore, in the Gospel According to St. Matthew, Matthew refers to Jesus
>as a Nazarene, or a native of Nazareth (Matthew 2:23).  He further says that
>this is a fulfillment of an earlier prediction.  However, no such saying of
>the prophets is found in any of the books contained in the Bible, which
>suggests that some scripture has been lost.  You might be interested to note
>that there are many books of scripture mentioned in the Bible which we do
>not currently h.  Fue.  Including the following:  The Book of the Covenant
>(Exo. 24:7); Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numb. 21:14); Book of Jasher
>(Josh. 10:13); Book of the Statutes (I Sam. 10:25); Book of Enoch (Jude 14);
>Book of the Acts of Solomon (I Kings 11:41); Book of Nathan the Prophet and
>Gad the Seer (I Chron. 29:29); Books of Ahijah the Shilonite and the Visions
>of Iddo the Seer (2 Chron. 9:29); Book of Shemaiah (2 Chron. 12:15); Story
>of the Prophet Iddo (2 Chron. 13:22); Book of Jehu (2 Chron. 20: 34); the
>Acts of Uzziah, by Isaiah the son of Amoz (2 Chron. 26:22); Sayings of the
>Seers (2 Chron. 33:19); a missing epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (I
>Cor. 5:9) a missing epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); a missing epistle
>to the Colossians, written from Laodicea (Col. 4:16); a missing epistle of
>Jude (Jude 3).

 There are indeed many books that are not in the standard Protestant Bible.
 Before a book is admitted into the canon it must first pass a series of
 objective tests. This is how church leaders have been able to determine
 what should be in the bible and what shouldn't. First, many of the books
 you have mentioned were written B.C. The canon (Old Testament) was completed
 at the time of Christ. Surely if some books had been left out, Christ
 would have pointed this out, as He repeatedly quoted Old Testament passages.
 Some tests of a New Testament Book are as follows: 1. Written by an Apostle
 or a close associate of an Apostle. 2. Read and studied by early church.
 3. NO contradictions to the whole of scripture. 4. No inaccuracies of any
 kind. (Historical, geographical, etc.) 5. Quoted by church Fathers.
 These tests were also applied to some Old Testament books that exist today
 but have been rejected.(i.e. Apocrapha). Speaking of lost books, I fail to
 see what this has to do with so-called revelation going on today.

>Finally, may I direct your attention to Deuteronomy 4:2, which reads ``Ye
>shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish
>ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which
>I command you.''
>
>Are you ready to reject all the books of the Bible which follow Deuteronomy,
>Mr. Arndt?
>
>Tammi Wright
>Ken Dellinger
>(Both members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)

 I am ready to reject any books that would change the message of scripture
 as completed in the first century. Jude 3 & 4. warns us to earnestly
 contend for the faith which was ONCE AND FOR ALL delivered to the saints.
 The faith can not drastically change if it was ONCE AND FOR ALL delivered.

 God has spoken in these latter days through His Son. His Son spoke through
 His commissioned Apostles. When the Apostolic age ended so did special
 Revelation. Down through the church age, men have tried to add to the faith,
 add to the prophetic completion of Revelation, resulting in chaos and
 confusion. Jehovahs Witnesses tell us that Christ is not God, Mormons tell us
 that Christ is one of many Gods, Christian Scientists tell us that Jesus
 was a man who demonstrated the Christ in all of us. And there are a myriad
 of others who tell us their idea or revelation.

 The Bible tells us that there is ONE God. That Christ is the IMAGE of the
 invisible God! That the Word of God was made FLESH and lived among us!
 That man was separated from God through sin but God reconciled the world
 to himself in Christ. When a modern day prophet undermines these great
 truths, it is the true prophet of God's responsibility to call the church
 to a position of biblical authority.

					Dan