Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site ssc-vax.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!fluke!ssc-vax!savage From: savage@ssc-vax.UUCP (Lowell Savage) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Re: What does it mean to be a christian Message-ID: <763@ssc-vax.UUCP> Date: Tue, 21-May-85 19:57:03 EDT Article-I.D.: ssc-vax.763 Posted: Tue May 21 19:57:03 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 23-May-85 02:33:52 EDT References: <29@denelvx.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA Lines: 107 > Jesus' life and actions do seem to be very clear in this regard. > They seem to support the following conclusions: > > There is NO SUCH THING AS A "JUST WAR". > > There is NO SUCH THING AS (for instance) A "CHRISTIAN ARMY". No, the kingdom of God does not need an army to support it with violence. But, perhaps the kingdoms of the world do need armies (including christians) to support and protect them. Millions of people prayed for deliverance from the Nazi holocaust--perhaps God used the allied armies to answer their prayers. Millions of people have prayed (to God and to other gods) for deliverance from the evil governments in Southeast Asia (after '75). Have their prayers been answered? (Estimates: 3 million dead in Cambodia after its fall in '75, .5 million dead in Vietnam after its fall in '75; compared to 1.5 million dead in Vietnam during the war. I don't know about Cambodia.) Also, millions of people have prayed for deliverance from their enemies (their government) in Russia, China, Afghanistan, Rumania, Czechoslavakia (spelling), Chili, Argentina.... Violence may not have been the solution for any or all of these. But I wonder. > Jesus' life as an example seems to say that we MUST REJECT ALL VIOLENCE ! Reject violence as a means of defending ourselves from violence, but does that extend to violence as a means of defending others? I can see it now: "Steven! Stop hitting me! Mommy!" "Steven, stop hitting Amy!" ... "Mommy, why didn't you make Steven stop?" "Because to do so I would have had to hurt him, I might have broken his arm...." "But mommy, he broke my arm, my leg, knocked out three teeth, and cracked my head." Sorry, I know it is an exaggeration, and it may never happen. But I hope that you can understand my objection to the absolute idea that violence is wrong. > Perhaps it is only when we reject all violence that we are forced, against > all that society tries to teach us, to find CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! > > If you fight fire with fire, you now have two fires. Both burn, both kill. > If the CIA becomes indistinguishable from the KGB, if the free world becomes > indistinguishable from the communists, then it doesn't matter who "wins". > If two tynanosaurus' are fighting, it doesn't matter to the mammals who wins. > Whichever one is the victor will eat them too. Only if there is a difference > between the two will it matter who "wins". Your analogy of fighting fire with fire is rather self-defeating. There are several areas in the west where that is almost a standard technique!! The idea is that you start a small, hopefully control- lable fire in the path of the larger fire. After it has burned out a boundary that is too large for the large fire to 'jump', you put it out (with dirt or whatever). Then the large fire gets there, has nothing to burn, and goes out. When you don't have enough water or other means to effectively fight the large fire, and the weather conditions are cooperative (ie. no great winds to fan your small fire into a large fire, etc) this is sometimes the only way! Following the analogy that YOU have initiated, then, a worldly government (by moral, christian leaders), may justly decide that the resources available to them force them in the situation leave them no alter- native but to go to war. > After the fall of Indonesia several years ago, ... > ...may not be christian examples, but it was nonviolent & EFFECTIVE. I don't know much about the "fall" or Indonesia, so I won't comment on it except to acknowledge that nonviolent actions can be effective in certain situations. I just hope that you are not going to try to extend one situation (or even several, like post-WWII India, or 1960 USA, civil rights) to say that the methods used will solve every one. > It is NOT enough to say violence is wrong. Christians must come up with > SOLUTIONS ! CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! EFFECTIVE CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! HEAR HEAR! YES! PLEASE! I am with you 100%! But until such solutions are found, I must also act to support those solutions that I percieve as the best possible solutions for the situation I find myself in. This may put me in support of violent solutions. > Apathy is not an acceptable christian solution. Ignoring suffering is not an > acceptable christian solution. Violence is not an acceptable christian > solution. So what is an acceptable christian solution ? > I am not sure. I do know that there are christian answers. Answers which > are not as "soul satisfying" as a "final solution", but which can help. I don't agree that violence is not an acceptable christian solution. Christ was rather violent with some greedy rascals in the Jerusalem Temple! Also, some of the greatest examples of NT faith were exhibited by Roman soldiers! The centurian (US Army 1st Lieu., or perhaps Capt.?) whose message boy (or slave) was healed "long distance" ("I tell my servant 'Come!' and he comes. I tell him 'Go!' and he goes..."); and the centurian (I believe) who prayed to God, and so God sent a vision to Peter of unclean things...(was he perhaps even the first Gentile "convert"? Acts:5 or 7 I think.) > So I ask you, I challenge you. What are good christian solutions to central > america, south africa, the middle east, ... ? The fate of the world, & > our individual peace of mind hangs in the balance. Yes, we should all be challenged by this question. And yes, the direction of the world (not God's kingdom), hangs in the balance. But I am not certain that the solution will necessarily be non-violent. I hope that it can, but I fear that it cannot. Remember Christ's words "There will always be wars and rumors of wars...." Pray for peace.