Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site aecom.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!aecom!teitz From: teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Re: Refuting Abominable Logic Message-ID: <1731@aecom.UUCP> Date: Mon, 3-Jun-85 15:23:19 EDT Article-I.D.: aecom.1731 Posted: Mon Jun 3 15:23:19 1985 Date-Received: Tue, 4-Jun-85 00:34:36 EDT References: <411@oakhill.UUCP> <564@sfmag.UUCP> Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY Lines: 75 > >>First, Yitzchok, show us all the irrefutable proof that your subjective ideas > >>ARE in fact the absolute truths.... > > > I can discuss why I believe the Torah is the absolute truth, and > > in fact this is often discussed by me and others on this net. > > However, that issue need not be proven to refute your original > > challenge, and I don't intend to apoligize for my belief in the > > Torah every time someone disagrees with my views. [SAMET] > > Nor do Nazis, by your "logic", have to apologize for their views that preach > intolerance and hatred of Jews. What's the difference? Can you actually show > us any such difference in a demonstrable fashion? Your proof is no better than > that for any other religion out there, and though you need not apologize for > your beliefs, I would think you WOULD need to apologize for being as hateful > as those who would hate you, no matter how contortedly you choose to justify it. > Why do people assume, because the Torah said not to tolerate abominations, that we are hateful of them. I can try myy hardest to undo all evil and despicable things and actions without hatred and venom towards the person. As King David, in Psalms, says, ' yitamu chataim min ha'aretz' let the sins end in the land. Not the sinners, the sins. We should try to correct mistakes, not crush the person who erred. This holds true as long as the person made a mistake. However, if he is an evil person who sins just for the sake of sinning, then we must somehow wipe out the sinner as well, as the verse continues, 'urishamin od enam' ( and the evil until they exist no more ). The religious should not all be classified as haters of the non-religious. Manyy religious people belong to outreach programs where we try and open new horizons to the unaquainted. We do not preach religious observance; we just make the people aware of what we believe and let them choose for themselves ( in an effor to wipe out sins and not sinners ). > > Your question was how do I dare not to tolerate homosexuality and > > how can I take an intolerant stance, since anyone can take an > > intolerant stance towards me. > > Amazing how the last refuge of the blatantly intolerant is always "But you're > being intolerant of my intolerance, so there!" > Rich, you leave yourself wide open to the same criticism. So far, you have shown as much intollerance on this net as anyone else. But your's is of course in the holy name of tolerance. Why is tolerance so holy ? I agree tat we should not force religion on anyyone who doesn't want it. But we should state for the record that there are those who feel justified in not tolerating certain things. You yourself do not tolerate intolerance. Religious Jews do not tolerate what the Torah says should not be tolerated. Granted, some religious people take this too far, but there are certain areas where they are right. And homosexuality is one of them. It should not be tolerated. This doesn't mean we should hate the homosexual. We should try to educate him. Not force the religion on him. Rather, show him what religion is all about. I'm sure if you looked at Judaism objectively, without any preconceived notions, you, too, would see many beautiful things in it. The main thrust of Judaism is to be tolerant. But, there are things that cannot be tolerated. Surely, you do not tolerate falsehoods. The Torah too, does nottolerate it. I do not want to get into the argument of whether the Torah is authentic and whether it should be followed since neither of us would convince the other differently than we already believe. But, given that the Torah exists, and there are those who follow it, and you must, by your own standards tolerate them; then, they are justified in their intolerance. We all have to learn to be more tolerant. Even you Rich. Let's not justifyy ourselves by saying the other is more intolerant. Eliyahu Teitz.