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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!oddjob!london
From: london@oddjob.UUCP (David London)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re:Re: Men: you are not individuals
Message-ID: <761@oddjob.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 30-May-85 12:37:03 EDT
Article-I.D.: oddjob.761
Posted: Thu May 30 12:37:03 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 31-May-85 04:09:44 EDT
Distribution: net
Organization: U. Chicago, Astronomy & Astrophysics
Lines: 46

<>

>> me (David London)
> w linke

>>So, I say to you men: you are *not* individuals. Society treats you as men,
>>which, in most cases, has benefited you. Be willing to accept (in part) the
>>blame for what other members of the group "men" do. And work to change men's
>>attitudes towards women, blacks, etc.
>>
>>					David London
>>					..!ihnp4!oddjob!london


>I am surprised to find that I am actually incapable of expressing in words
>my contempt for this posting.  Speak for yourself, London.  If you want to
>define your existence by what other people think of you, that's your
>business.  But the fact that I AM an individual can not be changed by what
>you or anyone else may think.

This is the sort of attitude which really annoys and dismays me. (Not the 
tone -  I'm used to that on the net). Sorry, but you don't have a choice -
your existence within this society IS defined (to a large extent) by what 
others think of you. You may shut your eyes and stamp up and down and shout 
"I am an individual", but it doesn't change the fact that society does not 
treat you as one (I assume you live in society?). For instance, if you 
(a man) and a woman apply for a job, and the woman is turned down because she
is a woman (which happens a lot), how have you obtained the job on *your* 
merits? You haven't; you just got it because your competition was a woman, 
who was not treated as an individual. 

I think I'll push the point a bit further, and say that this attitude really
has a tone of sexism, racism, etc.. If you really believe that you are treated
as an individual, then you must believe that everyone is treated as an 
individual (because, if others aren't treated as individuals, then, since you
interact with others, you must not be treated as an individual). Hence, there
must be something less worthwhile in women, blacks, etc.. for not having 
gotten the same jobs (for instance) as men. After all, they are treated as 
individuals, and must have been rejected on their lack of merit.

Working towards having everyone in society treated as individuals is an
admirable goal. But don't fool yourself into thinking that anyone, you 
included, is treated as an individual in this society.

						David London
						..!ihnp4!oddjob!london