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From: london@oddjob.UUCP (David London)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re:Re: Men: you are not individuals (Bull!)
Message-ID: <762@oddjob.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 30-May-85 12:40:52 EDT
Article-I.D.: oddjob.762
Posted: Thu May 30 12:40:52 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 31-May-85 04:10:02 EDT
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Organization: U. Chicago, Astronomy & Astrophysics
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<>

>> me (David London)
> Jeff Sonntag

>> ... So now I no longer object
>> to the phrase "Men do...". One *can* describe a large group of people by a
>> number of characteristics, some good and bad. 
  
>     Certainly, one *can*.  Once can say: 'Women are no good at engineering',
>or 'Blacks are shiftless and lazy.' or 'Jews have big noses.'  Of course, if
>one *does* say these things, then one is guilty of incorrect generalizations,
>racism, and sexism.  Why do you think it should be different when the group
>being generalized is 'men'?

All you have shown is that one can make incorrect generalizations, not that
generalizations are not valid - they may be. You can even make valid and 
useful generalizations about blacks, Jews, women, etc.., without being 
bigotted.

Try these:
1. Blacks, in the U.S., after suffering discrimination for so many years, 
   have a "collective inferiority complex", which also must be overcome to 
   correct the effects of discrimination.
2. Jews have a history of promoting learning and education among their 
   children, which may account for the fact that so many of our great scholars
   over the last 100 years (for instance) are Jewish: e.g. Einstein, Marx, 
   Freud.
3. Men (in our society) have treated, and continue to treat, women very badly.
   Women have been made to feel inferior, and been made to feel as if they
   could not do things men can. Among (many) other things, this sort of 
   attitude has been promoted (by men) by such phrases as 'Women are no good
   at engineering'.

>> So, I say to you men: you are *not* individuals. Society treats you as men,
>> which, in most cases, has benefited you. Be willing to accept (in part) the
>> blame for what other members of the group "men" do. 

>     Society also treats me as an engineer, which, in most cases, has
>benefited me.  But I'm not willing to accept (in any part) the blame for 
>what other members of the group "engineer" have done.

No, society does *not* treat you as an engineer. Those who know you may treat
you as an engineer (I'm not really sure what being "treated as an engineer" 
means). The fact that you are an engineer *is* part of your individuality.
The fact that people who don't even know you treat you a certain way, simply
because you are a man, is evidence of your loss of individuality. I'm not
supporting this, just pointing it out. I said this in another posting, but
let me say it again: if women and blacks (among others) are not treated as
individuals, how can you believe that you are?

>    I will never accept the blame for someone else's actions, 
>	nor allow anyone to accept the blame for mine. 
>    People are individuals, and they must be treated as such.  Treating them
>as groups of faceless automata fullfilling societally defined roles is cruel,
>unfair, and exactly the kind of behavior which the feminist movement has been
>trying to change.  

First of all, I think you misinterpreted, or put different connotations on,
my use of the phrases "blame" and "responsibility". I don't mean that, for
instance, if a man is convicted of rape, you should go take his place. But 
you must recognize that this sort of behaviour does have some connection with
our society, with the way men treat and view women. As a man, your peers
have created this sexist, racist, etc.. society (i.e. laws and attitudes).
I believe that you must recognize this fact. This is not, by the way, just
intellectualizing. I think it goes deeper, to the "psyche" of men in our
society. And I think part of the solution to the problem is recognizing this,
and working to eliminate it.

Secondly, I agree that people are individuals, and must be treated as such.
My point is that our society doesn't treat anyone as an individual (including
you), and this must be recognized - you can't go around saying "I AM an 
individual", because, in this society, you're not; what you can do is to
start treating everyone as an individual, teach your kids to do the same,
etc.. But all the while, you can't pretend that, just because you treat
others as individuals, others will do the same to you. You may want them
to, but they (very likely) will not.

					David London
					..!ihnp4!oddjob!london