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From: js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re:Re: Men: you are not individuals (Bull!)
Message-ID: <898@mhuxt.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 30-May-85 17:01:02 EDT
Article-I.D.: mhuxt.898
Posted: Thu May 30 17:01:02 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 31-May-85 06:09:24 EDT
References: <762@oddjob.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill
Lines: 49

> >> or > = David London
> > Jeff Sonntag (me)
> 
> >> ... So now I no longer object
> >> to the phrase "Men do...". One *can* describe a large group of people by a
> >> number of characteristics, some good and bad. 

   Oops, deleted too much.  David was giving these (below) as examples of
correct generalizations:
> 3. Men (in our society) have treated, and continue to treat, women very badly.
>    Women have been made to feel inferior, and been made to feel as if they
>    could not do things men can. Among (many) other things, this sort of 
>    attitude has been promoted (by men) by such phrases as 'Women are no good
>    at engineering'.

    The problem with this type of generalization is the same as the problem in
the following generalization:
     "Dogs are black."
    What's that?  Only some dogs are black?  You think my generalization about
dogs is incorrect?  How is it different from your generalization about men?
> 
> Secondly, I agree that people are individuals,

    Yeah!  Then what are we argueing about?

> and must be treated as such.
> My point is that our society doesn't treat anyone as an individual (including
> you), and this must be recognized - you can't go around saying "I AM an 
> individual", because, in this society, you're not;

    The fact that this society doesn't treat me or anyone as an individual
is one of this society's problems, not evidence of our lacks of individuality.
I define myself by what *I* think of myself, not by what society thinks of me.

> what you can do is to
> start treating everyone as an individual, teach your kids to do the same,
> etc.. But all the while, you can't pretend that, just because you treat
> others as individuals, others will do the same to you. You may want them
> to, but they (very likely) will not.

    Damn good advice.  I think the whole misunderstanding we've had here,
David, is about the source of individuality.  I think it comes from within
a person; you seem to think that it is assigned to or denied from a person
by society.  You're wrong.
-- 
Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
    "It doesn't matter what you wear,
     just as long as you are there." - Martha and the Vandellas