Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.PCS 1/10/84; site mtgzz.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!drutx!mtuxo!mtgzz!seb From: seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Discrimination Message-ID: <783@mtgzz.UUCP> Date: Thu, 30-May-85 19:11:31 EDT Article-I.D.: mtgzz.783 Posted: Thu May 30 19:11:31 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 1-Jun-85 13:09:50 EDT References: <354@iham1.UUCP> <25954@lanl.ARPA> <2896@drutx.UUCP>, <715@burl.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Middletown NJ Lines: 66 >> I just don't understand why people are against something that is >> helping others out. Why is it so bad to do everything we can to >> right terrible wrongs. Some individuals think that just because >> they are so fortunate that somehow if you aren't then it's your >> fault. Why is it that if a woman or minority gets a promotion, >> it somehow is not based upon their qualifications. Let's try to be >> a little bit more open-minded and understanding toward other people. >Maybe I am missing something, but I think your second to last sentence >completely contradicts the rest of your article. After all, you are >saying that the minorities need this help (discrimination in their >favor) because of past wrongs. Ok, that is one point of view. I don't >subscribe to it, but it is valid. But then you wonder why, if this >is going on, somehow people don't think minorities are being promoted >on the basis of their qualifications. Either they don't need the help >and should be in the pack with the rest of us, or they do need extra >help because they cannot otherwise compete. I don't think you can have >it both ways. And, obviously, I feel they are qualified to compete >and SHOULD. >geoff sherwood Given the case where a white male and a woman are equally qualified for a job, who should get the job? Should we flip a coin? No, I don't think so. Women and minorities have been passed over in promotions for years. What's wrong with tipping the scales in their favor a little? Considering the number of women and minorities in the workforce, that should still leave lots of promotions for white men. Should women and minorities being promoted over white males that are more qualified? Ideally, no. But since when do promotions always go to the most qualified person? Like it or not, there are a lot of politics involved with promotions. People get promoted be- cause they kiss up to the boss, or have the same philosophy as the boss. They may not be qualified for the job, but politically they are the right person for the job. So now the politics have changed a little. It is politically correct to promote more women and minorities. Some of them will be incompetent. But they've been promoting incompetent white men for years now. Are we going to attack all the political reasons for promoting people? You have your work cut out for you, particularly since a lot of the reasons are unspoken(and most discriminate against women and minorities, I would guess). Life is not ideal. If you want to stop promoting incompetent women and minorities, over white men then you'd better stop promoting incompetent white men, just to be fair. I think that the argument that incompetent people are being promoted is tossed about to cover up what really is going on. Men don't like playing second fiddle to women and minorities. Everyone wants you to believe that lots of incompetent people are being promoted because it adds fuel to their argument. Not only are we practicing discrimination, but we're getting boobs to do the jobs also! How can we stand this! I doubt it's the problem some people seem to make it (don't try telling me I'm making this up. I have lots of friends who tell me all about the incompetent women bosses they have, or how this black person is incompetent but got in the program because the person is black). So back to my original question - should equally qualified people be promoted on the toss of the coin or on sex? I doubt that equally qualified people were chosen on the toss of the coin before. So what criteria would you use to discriminate between two equally qualified people? Sharon Badian ihnp4!mtgzz!seb