Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mnetor.UUCP
Path: utzoo!utcs!mnetor!sophie
From: sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley)
Newsgroups: net.abortion
Subject: Re: Late term abortions
Message-ID: <975@mnetor.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 12-Jun-85 11:33:04 EDT
Article-I.D.: mnetor.975
Posted: Wed Jun 12 11:33:04 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 12-Jun-85 13:22:04 EDT
References: <3@dscvax2.UUCP>
Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 104

> > Subject: Re: Fingernails, hair clippings and the fetus
> > 
> >> Equates clipping your nails or getting a haircut with having an abortion.
> >> Let's see, . . . my hair can't live unless it's attached to me . . .
> >> 
> > Well, YOU made the comparison, not me.  A 2 month old fetus cannot live
> > unless attached to its mother either, while you're at it.  An eight month
> > old fetus on the other hand, might, but who wants to abort 8 month old
> > fetuses anyway?
> > -- 
> > Sophie Quigley
> > {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
> 
> Viability is not the issue here.  If it were, then Sophie would be pushing
> for laws to protect 8 month old pre-born babies.  I don't believe she is.

Before you speak for me, I suggest you check with me.  I am not pushing
for laws to protect 8 month old fetuses because I believe that these
laws would be extented to cover all fetuses.   I would be very
satisfied with laws that outlawed third trimester abortions (except for
medical reasons) if they were accompanied by laws which guaranteed
access to first and second trimester abortions to ANY woman desiring
one without any unreasonnable (>1 week) delay between the time she
requested it and the abortion.  I know that in Canada most late abortions
are caused by the fact that there are so many administrative delays 
involved in the procedure, delays that the mother has no control over.
I believe that the earlier the abortion, the better.  Apart from the fact
that the procedure is safer the earlier it is performed, the fetus is
also less developped and the chances of killing an sentient being are
lower.  The mental anguish the mother goes through is also significantly
reduced.

> By the way, approximately 41 abortions are performed daily in this country
> AFTER the 20th week!

The 20th week = 4.5 months, therefore the embryo is about 4 months old (the
weeks are counted from the date of the last period, but most conceptions
happen around ovulation), therefore 3 months after the mother first has a
chance to find out she is pregnant (1 month between periods + 2 weeks for 
the tests to work).  That is a big delay (you didn't mention what proportion
of abortions happen after this period).  Knowing female anatomy and psyche
a bit more intimately than you, a delay of 2 months seems quite reasonnable
to me (having an abortion is not an easy decision, and organising it is not
always easy).  In Canada, the third month would usually be due to administrative
delays, and they are the unnexcusable ones.

> Since approximately 97% of abortions in this country
> are done for reasons other than rape, incest or to save the life of the
> mother, about 40 fully-formed human fetuses are being murdered daily.  If

Either they are murdered or not; rape, incest or life-saving have nothing
to do with the moral validity of a particular abortion.

> you don't know what a 20-week-old fetus looks like, look it up.  This
> being is not a blob of tissue; it is easily recognizable as a human being.
> It can feel and responds to pain.  The horrors imposed by a late abortion
> would sicken the unknowledgeable.  Dismemberment and saline solutions are
> common abortion methods for late abortions. 

Yes, they are disgusting, and that's why abortions should be performed as
soon as is possible.

> Would even the cruelest among
> us advocate these methods for the execution of death-row prisoners?  Pro-

Oh, cut out the rethoric, will ya.  We're not talking about death-row
prisonners, but about fetuses.

> choicers like to talk alot about incest, rape, the plight or poor women, etc.
> but somehow forget to talk about the people who use abortion to cover up
> extramarital sex and as birth control.  We can't define life based on

"cover up extramarital sex", that's an ineresting concept.  I guess we should
outlaw it instead then (oops, sorry, I'm getting snarky now...)

> a perverted notion of convenience and freedom.  We have to protect everyone's
> rights if we are to protect our own.
> 
> 	When they persecuted you for being Black,
> 		I sat quiet for it did not effect me.
> 	When they persecuted you for being religious,
> 		I was too busy to help you.
> 	When they persecuted you in your old age,
> 		I turned away because I couldn't relate.
> 	When they persecuted me, I cried for help,
> 		but there was no one left to help me.
> 
> Matt Noah

Oh shut up!  This little poem is really cute, but after hearing each and
every group who has an opinion use it, even if it is completely irrelevant
to their case, one gets a little sick of it.  This poem has nothing to do
with fetuses (noone is trying to extend abortions to post-birth
babies, and the people having abortions are the mothers of babies, not a
centralised police state). 

And just to let you know that I am not picking on you because I disagree
with you, let me add that I also believe that this poem that I also 
believe that it has nothing to do with nuclear annihilation (something I
am against) because nuclear bombs will not act surreptitiously, and pick
on one group of people after another.
-- 
Sophie Quigley
{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie