Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site tilt.FUN Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!tilt!chenr From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) Newsgroups: net.audio Subject: Re: Digiphobes - the beat goes on, sigh. Message-ID: <309@tilt.FUN> Date: Wed, 5-Jun-85 06:13:43 EDT Article-I.D.: tilt.309 Posted: Wed Jun 5 06:13:43 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 08:14:33 EDT References: <2412@decwrl.UUCP> <350@moncol.UUCP> <304@tilt.FUN> <1199@hound.UUCP> Reply-To: chenr@tilt.UUCP (Ray Chen) Organization: Princeton University EECS Dept Lines: 109 Summary: In article <1199@hound.UUCP> rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes: >[] >Tell you what, life fun right now for thousands and thousands of >good old common people who never had it so (musically) good before CD. > >And hundreds of join you in your boredom, despair and disgust at the >continuing dialog (if we can call it that) betweeb digiphobes (your term) and >digiphiles (implied by phobes). > >But, tens of us still get upset when people like you make the informed >sounding personal opinion> sweeping denunciations >of the present state of the art. Statements like yours don't really affect >the oldtimers. But they can affect the newcomers to audio and mislead them >from a lot of fun "for the next five years" or so. Dick, since I tried to make the point throughout my entire article (304@tilt.FUN) that listening was subjective, I assumed that when I stated, say, that people were butchering CDs in the mastering process, that readers would assume that that was my personal opinion. Actually, I do think that a lot of people are screwing up mastering for digital disks but I don't think that everybody cares or can even tell. In which case, to use a cliche, a difference that makes no difference is no difference. As for the term "digiphobe", it isn't my term. I used it because the current definition of digiphobe seems to be someone who isn't totally sold on digital technology and I fall into that category. >The fact is that there is a very good case to be made that a person just >getting started in audio or high-fi, especially a person on limited funds >like a student, should skip vinyl technology all together and start with >FM and CD. (or, possibly, as you point out) Beta or VHS Hi-Fi as with the >latter you can replace cassettes as well). About the last thing they >should do is either >a) wait five years (they could be dead in 5 years). >b) mortgage the farm for a high end turntable, arm, cleaning machine, cart- > ridge, stylus, micrometer, etc., etc., Definitely true if he's happy listening to FM and a CD player, and I *definitely* agree with you on point b. There's absolutely no reason for most people to get a Linn, Oracle, or what-not, considering the price. I, for one, can think a lot of better things to do with my money. >I can't help wondering how you made your big evaluation of the state of the >digital art. By listening in high end salons that think their future >depends on retaining vinyl technology? By listening to the testimonials of >other such folk in their communal publications (and advertising compendia) >such as The Absolute Sound? By "hob-nobbing with your fellow wizards" as L. >F. B. used to say? Bet you didn't do it by getting a known working model >in your own home and using it extensively with your own system - with >a variety of CD's, not just the stinkers. This was a reasonable article up to this paragraph. Sorry, Dick, but I'm afraid I don't fit into your stereotype of the "Golden-Eared Audiophile Digiphobe". I don't subscribe to "The Absolute Sound", I've never set foot in a high-end audio salon (I call them "tweak shops") in my life, and none of my friends lay claim to being high-end audiophiles or golden-ears. The system I have now cost me around $2300 and I intend to keep it for a *long* time. You are right about one thing. I never did take a CD player home with me. I just went around to a few stores and listened to what they had available and made my conclusions based on what I heard. I did try and make sure that the CD players I heard were going through systems at least as good as mine (in one case, it was identical). I also certainly didn't listen to every CD player and I make no claim to having listened to the best (which I could never afford). On the other hand, what I listened to wasn't the worst either. I also don't claim that my conclusions are universally valid. I do claim that for me, they are valid. >I for one am perfectly happy to let sleeping CD wars lie, but only if the >multitudes are given the truth -which to me is that at present, only a very >small and increasingly minute fraction of the audio community maintains >that CD's are inferior to vinyl records at the state of the art. >Of course there are many inferior CD's. There are millions of inferior >vinyl records too, have been for years and will continue to be despite >overdue and too late efforts of the record industry to get its act >together. CDs are expensive. So are good quality records (with a few >exceptions like Musical Heritage Society). A student on a budget could >go far on a CD player, an FM tuner and a pair of Stax phones.(Just to >cite one of many possibilities resulting in state of the art sound). One thing about high quality records. They are expensive. About as expensive as CDs (or a bit more). However, I know certain labels such as Mobile Fidelity, Sheffield Labs, the RCA .5 Series, American Gramaphone, etc., consistently produce records high-quality records. I'm not sure that the same situation has developed in the CD market. Also, different possibilities are better for different people. I don't own an FM tuner and I hate headphones. I just wish that the analog-bashers would realize that just because they can't hear some "problems" with digital sound doesn't mean that others can't. I also wish that the digital-bashers would realize that not everybody should care that they can hear a difference between digital and analog. I don't consider myself to be a ditigal-basher because while I claim that I can hear some problems with the current digital sound, I don't claim that these problems are so significant that they should affect everybody. On the other hand, I deeply resent it when somebody comes along and tries to tell me what I can and can not hear. Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr