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Path: utzoo!utcs!mnetor!clewis
From: clewis@mnetor.UUCP (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: net.politics,net.social,net.women,net.flame
Subject: Re: Discrimination and Affirmative Action
Message-ID: <936@mnetor.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 5-Jun-85 10:27:28 EDT
Article-I.D.: mnetor.936
Posted: Wed Jun  5 10:27:28 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 5-Jun-85 11:17:49 EDT
References: <566@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> <879@mnetor.UUCP> <158@lzwi.UUCP>
Reply-To: clewis@mnetor.UUCP (Chris Lewis)
Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 81
Xref: utcs net.politics:9038 net.social:544 net.women:5526 net.flame:9978
Summary: 

In article <158@lzwi.UUCP> cja@lzwi.UUCP (C.E.JACKSON) writes:
>> they find the best person for the job.  I don't think racial/sexual
>> biases are particularly prevalent anymore especially in highly technical 
>> areas (though handicapped *might* be). 
>Either life is radically different in Canada or you just haven't talked to
>many of the people who've been discriminated against. 

Life must be different in Canada - most of the places (IBM, AES and
BNR - all pretty big companies) that I have worked at have been balanced 
pretty well - some disproportionately well.  I've had lots of opportunity 
to talk to people who were in the groups that are supposed to be 
discriminated against.

>Recruiters tend to hire people they like, & in many cases the people they like
>are like themselves. If, for historical reasons, the people who hired the
>recruiters are white males, the recruiters are going to take the work of
>white males more seriously.

Recruiters hiring people that they know (somehow, via Church, clubs,
social groups etc.) or indirectly know of because of what area they
are in the social group isn't necessarily discrimination.  Many times
it makes perfect sense because the recruiter already knows what they
are like.  It's a lot safer to hire a known person than someone that
you know from nothing more than an half an hour interview.

Yes, maybe the inclusion of certain minorities in certain groups
(eg: particular religious denominations) isn't proportionate.
Sometimes that may be discrimination (and usually past discrimination)
That can be a problem.  However, would you like to impose a requirement
that 10% of all Catholics in the U.S. must be black?

Then again, most of the recruiters that I have dealt with have been
female anyways.

>Also, discrimination is not always overt, nor does it simply start at the
>job market. In my high school, girls weren't allowed in the computer club.

What!  Holy smokes, you'd never get away with that in most cities in
Canada.  Amateur hockey is even becoming co-ed (tho slowly).

>(This is a public high school, mind you.) Recent studies have shown that
>even when girls allowed to use the computers that teachers still tend to 
>let the boys use them more often. Girls are less likely to be encouraged
>to stay in advanced math classes.

>> But, past prejudice doesn't alleviate the fact of someone not being
>> best-of-the-applicants qualified for a particular job *now*.

>I don't think the prejudice is "past."

Most of it is.  I have had conversations with a lot of people (in
various minorities) that have said the same thing.

>And have you *never* worked with an incompetent white male? I hear all

Of course - lots of times.  But, at one place where I worked (one of the
companies has AA carryover from the States) almost all of the people
in my dept. were incompetent, and almost all from minorities.

>of these complaints about AA discriminating against these postively
>brilliant white males who are incredibly overqualified & I look around
>me, & when I look at the people who are incompetent, whom do I see in amazingly
>disproportionate numbers? Despite the alleged "reverse discrimination" of
>AA? White males.

Interesting - I haven't noticed that.  How long have they been there?
It's been my experience that incompetence is pretty well distributed
amongst various groups, except for a possible increase among white
or near-white (but not WASP) males AND females.

>If the "best-of-the-applicants" were all that were/are considered without
>AA then how did all this white male dead weight get to where it is?

Prior prejudice.  Even if there was currently a lot of prejudice, most
of the "white male dead weight" would have gotten there during prior
times (they didn't all get hired last week!) during the obviously higher
levels of discrimination.
-- 
Chris Lewis,
UUCP: {allegra, linus, ihnp4}!utzoo!mnetor!clewis
BELL: (416)-475-8980 ext. 321