Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83 based; site houxf.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!houxf!9234dwz From: 9234dwz@houxf.UUCP (T.SIEFRING) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.social,net.women,net.flame Subject: Re: Discrimination and Affirmative Action Message-ID: <907@houxf.UUCP> Date: Tue, 4-Jun-85 11:15:21 EDT Article-I.D.: houxf.907 Posted: Tue Jun 4 11:15:21 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 9-Jun-85 21:28:20 EDT References: <566@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP>, <478@hou2g.UUCP>, <903@houxf.UUCP>, <157@lzwi.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ Lines: 75 Xref: linus net.politics:8663 net.social:569 net.women:5118 net.flame:9476 FIRST T.SEIFRING IS A GROUP ACCOUNT LOGIN (he's also an individual unrelated to the article in question) I'd love to find time to address all of C.E. JACKSONs points, but time won't permit that. I hope that CEJ doesn't feel that I'm taking things out of context. 1) ->First, I find that many white males are promoted for reasons other ->than education, experience, competency, etc. and that even ->when those reasons are a factor, other factors also come into ->play. People are promoted or hired or not fired because they go to church ->with the person making the decision (or someone known to the ->person making the decision), because they belong to the same ->fraternity, because they lived in the same town or because they ->went to the same school. People who have these kinds of close ->personal contacts with those in power are more likely to get ->breaks than those who don't. Because of America's habits & ->history, blacks are less likely to live in the same ->towns/neighborhoods with whites, less likely to attend the ->same schools or belong to the same fraternities, social clubs ->or churches. Women are also less likely to have professional ->or quasi-professional contacts with the males in power. These "social footladders" are just as difficult to penetrate for the average white male as they are for blacks & females, consider Mr X from Average Town with no parental financial support to speak of. How does he pay the country club fees ? He went to a State University (because his parents couldn't afford Haaaarvard). With the mobility afforded/needed today he probably wasn't raised in the same town/neighbourhood. ->Therefore, AA policies help to make up for the difference in ->access to opportunities that currently exists. They also kick Mr X in the teeth too ! Where does his help come from. Not that he's asking for help just a fair shot ! I could go on but CEJ uses a RICH white male as the villain of the piece and ignores the fact that probably 90% or of white males don't fit that picture. -> ->Or perhaps you need militants pushing for revolution to force ->the more conservative majority to "evolve." Do you really ->think that if the 60s, with its militant push for civil rights ->*hadn't* happened, that blacks would be as well off as they ->are today? I think we'd still be where South Africa is. -> I see the civil rights movemant as a part of evolution where the "establishment" wasn't moving quick enough and needed a good kick. I ALSO see the Reagan administration as part of that same evolution where enough people thought things had swung too far from the "establishment" way of thinking. I expect in time to come that the pendulum will swing again. If the civil rights movement hadn't happened I don't KNOW how well/bad off the blacks would be. If it hadn't happened in the 60s then it would have happened when ENOUGH people decided ths time had come. -> -> -the only real one I've heard ->suggested is to wait for society to "evolve." It's a funny ->concept of law & justice to say that my best hope is to work ->so that my greatgranddaughter gets the justice I am denied). What justice is being denied to you ? As opposed to an inequity that you think is being placed upon you. Dave Peak @ ihnp4!hotel!dxp "I am the God of Hellfire, and I bring you fire" - CWoA Brown