Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site SCINEWS.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!mcnc!rti-sel!SCINEWS!jimi
From: jimi@SCINEWS.UUCP (Jim Ingram)
Newsgroups: net.micro
Subject: Re: demise of 8086 family?
Message-ID: <159@SCINEWS.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 18-Jun-85 20:13:05 EDT
Article-I.D.: SCINEWS.159
Posted: Tue Jun 18 20:13:05 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 21-Jun-85 03:08:33 EDT
References: <120@SCINEWS.UUCP> <156@ittral.UUCP>
Distribution: net
Organization: SCI Systems, Research Triangle Park, NC
Lines: 88

> In article <120@SCINEWS.UUCP> ned@SCINEWS.UUCP (Ned Robie) writes:
> >SUMMARY:
> > IBM will replace the 8086 family with a u/370 in the not-so-distant
> > future.... The 370 has virtual memory(!), a well-proven architecture, 
> > and gobs of software. 
> >
> > Mr. Hall asks: is the S/370 well proven? are there gobs of software?

The best way for me to respond is to take this on a point-by-point basis.
My only regret is that I will sound like an IBM defender. I only respond
because Mr. Hall seems to have totally missed the point of the original
posting, along with others on the net. 

The orig. posting is NOT about the xT/370, but about a chip (set?) under
development at various IBM sites that replicates the S/370 architecture.
I recently listened to Nick Treddenick of IBM describe some work in this
area and saw a preliminary, high-level chip layout.

> Bullcrap!!!!! Do you really think IBM produces all the software that
> runs on all of these 8086/8 machines? Not even close. And how many
> people would trade their 8088 based PC's with all the *useful*
> software they have for a machine with very little software relevant to
> the business world?
> 
This paragraph leads one to believe the original posting's reference to
software was to 8086 family software. How Mr. Hall misconstrued this I
don't know. The original reference was to the large amount of S/370
software out in the world. Even an ardent  IBM-hater must admit that
$3.2 billion 1984 software revenues indicates acceptance in the business world.
 
> Have you even stopped to think what kind of hardware support you'd
> have to have to get the kind of performance you're thinking about?
> We're definitely not talking about a $3000 machine here. You mention
> virtual memory. Now you need mega-disk space (fast disks, too) to get
> decent performance from it.
> 
Mr. Hall asking anyone if he or she has stopped to think is ironic, be-
cause he apparently has never had that experience. Whether or not this
approach requires extensive hardware support at present is irrelevant. 
By the time a u/370 is available, large fast disks, etc. should be  
readily available.

A 10MB disk is inadequate for serious business applications. An 8086
family CPU is inadequate for large serious applications due to its 
retarded architecture (64KB segments). Everything about the IBM PC and
XT shouts "toy." A $3000 IBM PC or clone, despite what "power users"
and "spreadsheet jockeys" think, is not a business machine without a
lot of bags hanging off it. Single user systems may make some sense,
but single tasking is brain-dead (yes I know CMS is single-tasking).

> A well-proven architecture does not necessarily mean a clean, elegant
> architecture. The 370 is nearly 20 years old. It doesn't lend itself
> well to small systems. It never will. And if Itty-Bitty-Machines is
> silly enough to market a 370-on-a-chip, it won't present any threat to
> the Intel family. The base is already too solid.
> 
> Doug Hall
> ittvax!ittral!hall
>
>

Whether the S/370 architecture is "clean" or "elegant" is irrelevant in
light of its huge commercial success. Its age is also not important. The 
IBM 43xx family has some very small systems, so the third point is demonstrably
wrong, and there is nothing inherent in the architecture that restricts its
use in small systems.

Assume there are a couple of million 3270 terminals installed, all connected
to IBM mainframes, running applications under CICS, IMS, etc. It seems 
plausible that all the MIS managers of IBM shops would buy machines that 
beat the IBM 327x terminals on bang/buck (absurdly easy) and don't pose
the data comm and architectural problems inherent in the PC. These same 
managers control DP activities in companies with hundreds of thousands of 
PCs. They could kill two birds with one stone with a box like this, and 
they're asking for them now. (Those who think that MIS managers have lost
a significant amount of control are hopelessly naive, or have never really
requested serious corporate data from a corporate MIS department for their
PC.) 

Since IBM caters to MIS, and MIS caters to IBM, a scenario that preserves 
the installed S/370 software base (worth about $200 billion world-wide)
and makes more mega-bucks for IBM seems very plausible.

To conclude, Mr. Hall, I would appreciate it if you (could) would understand
what you reply to.

Jim Ingram		    SCI Systems, Inc.        	     919 549 8334
{akgua, decvax}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!jimi	P.O 12557, RTP, NC  27709