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From: mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON)
Newsgroups: net.music
Subject: It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that undefinable
Message-ID: <340@mhuxr.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 5-Jun-85 08:15:44 EDT
Article-I.D.: mhuxr.340
Posted: Wed Jun  5 08:15:44 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 08:20:17 EDT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill
Lines: 31

> Swing isn't JUST rhythm.  Swing is undefinable.  Try defining it some time.
> (Maybe Ellington's taste has the same musical emphasis that yours has.  And
> maybe that's why you like him.)  And where did I say that the essence of jazz
> is improvisation?
> 	Rich Rosen    ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr

Do you make such statements just to provoke discussion? I hope so. Do you
mean swing as a musical quality or as the jazz sub-genre that reached its peak
in the period between the rise of Louis Armstrong and that of Charlie Parker?

The latter has best been defined by Count Basie who said "Give me four hard
beats, and no cheating", clearly rhythmic attributes. The former,
as you correctly point out, is undefinable. Or rather, there is no
comprehensive, precise, written definition. The lack of precision is
understandable. If you try to explain rhythm using the tools of harmonic
analysis, you will fail because harmony, as I stated in an other posting,
puts music in an arbitrary set of steps that will of necessity have some
quantizing noise. A comprehensive definition might agree with Martin
Williams, who said (I paraphrase) "Swing is the characteristic of music that
carries the listener forward in Time, from measure to measure"
Although vague, this statement captures the essentially rhythmic nature
of swing. Maybe swing is undefinable, but its component parts are
clearly rhythmic: phrasing behind or ahead of the beat; accenting 
dominant vs weak beats; the contrasting of 3 vs 4 beats, the most clearly
identifiable component of swing (the sub-genre) drumming....

I would be proud to have Ellington's taste agree with mine (or more accurately,
have my taste agree with his.) He is only the greatest composer America
has ever produced. His words carry far more weight than your pronouncements.

Marcel Simon