Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site cybvax0.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!mcnc!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!think!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Evidences for Religion Message-ID: <565@cybvax0.UUCP> Date: Mon, 3-Jun-85 16:20:09 EDT Article-I.D.: cybvax0.565 Posted: Mon Jun 3 16:20:09 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 04:23:34 EDT References: <2006@decwrl.UUCP> <749@rayssd.UUCP> <323@scgvaxd.UUCP> Reply-To: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA Lines: 84 In article <328@scgvaxd.UUCP> dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Boskovich) writes: > > The Resurrection > Where did his body go? Unimportant, unless you believe the story of the resurrection. Perhaps the body was disposed of casually: the tomb could be a story. > Did the disciples steal it? Shortly before the crucifixion, the disciples > fled away like scared rabbits. Peter denied even knowing Jesus for > fear of his life. What is the probability that these 12 frightened sheep, > ruined and dejected at the loss of their shephard, would go to the tomb of > Jesus, face the Roman guards and all their weapons, move the stone and take > the body. Why would Romans guard the tomb of a heretic they had executed? Why would someone be foolish enough to claim the body, identifying themseleves as followers? > Evidences in favor of the Resurrection: > > Jesus appeared to over 500 people after His Resurrection. That's the STORY: this is nowhere supported outside of the bible. You already have to beleive the bible to accept this as evidence. That's called circular logic. > The enemies of Christ gave no refutation of the Resurrection! Why? They > had no alternative conclusion! No refutation has survived to today. Why? It might not have seemed important at the time, being an outrageous tale, and in any event how could it be refuted? Even if the actual body was produced, you couldn't convince anyone it was JC, rather than any other corpse. And you'd have to truck it all over the countryside, where ever the apostles went telling their lies. The best refutation then and now is that it just defies common sense. The alternative conclusion is that the ressurection story is a silly lie. > The transformed lives of the Apostles! After being frightened away > and left in a state of depression and self-pity, suddenly the Apostles > become brave, courageous, outspoken, empowered witnesses for Christ. > Facing prison, persecution, and death, the Apostles continued to > evangelize and proclaim the Gospel. No transformation involved. Jesus specifically had to dissuade the apostles from fighting for him prior to being lead away, if you believe the bible. As for the risk, it was no greater than that taken by many people then and now, in many faiths, political persuasions, armies, and crimes. It was a living. > The transformed lives of the last 1900 years. In every faith you can name. > The courage of the Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, Huss, etc. Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Ba'Ha Ulla, and the reformers in other faiths. > Not only was the Resurrection predicted by Christ over and over again, > but it was predicted in the Old Testament over 1000 years before it > happened. Psalm 22 vividly describes the Lord being crucified and > the purpose for it. Another dubious claim. Even if it were predicted, the apostles could have claimed it happened without its having happened. "Oh, Jesus appeared to over 500 people in the last town!" A shill in the audience: "I saw it!" > The choices are few: He was either a Liar, a Lunatic, or The Lord! I'm not going to bother to refute the liar/lunatic/god false dilemma in depth. It has been refuted here many times before. Suffice it to say that even wise and good people can lie fluently. I hope, Dan, that you will favor us with your revised versions that take all our criticisms into account. But I suspect you will ignore us and repeat these fallacious arguments anyhow, hoping to prey upon the uninformed. -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh