Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site ssc-vax.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!savage From: savage@ssc-vax.UUCP (Lowell Savage) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Re: Evidences for Religion Message-ID: <804@ssc-vax.UUCP> Date: Tue, 4-Jun-85 20:44:31 EDT Article-I.D.: ssc-vax.804 Posted: Tue Jun 4 20:44:31 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 08:36:50 EDT References: <2006@decwrl.UUCP> <749@rayssd.UUCP> <323@scgvaxd.UUCP> Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA Lines: 93 > > Where did his body go? > > > > ... Did the soldiers fall asleep while guarding the tomb? > > > > To do so would have meant death for these highly trained soldiers. > > The Roman soldiers were under the very strictest of discipline and > > training. > > > > ... The soldiers were not able to explain the empty tomb. They were told what > > to say and bribed by the Sanhedrin. > > I suppose bribery was consistent with their "very strictest" discipline > and training. Gimme a break. GimME a break. It's one thing to train a soldier to do what you tell him to without question (stand guard without falling asleep), and it's another thing to make him be "moral" (not accept bribes). If you were to take a U.S. Army platoon and have them guard something over-night, you are going to be very surprised if they all fell asleep. (I would be surprised if any of them fall asleep during the first week of guard duty except when ordered "off duty" by their immediate C.O.--after that, provided that nothing ever happens to make them feel necessary, some of them might get lazy, but not all of them, and not all at once.) However, I doubt that you would be sur- prised if they wouldn't be perfectly willing to lie if the object they were guarding were to disappear mysteriously (putting them in jeapardy of Court Martial) and if there were a little cash to grease the process. They didn't pay the grunts enough money at that time, any more than they do now. Yes even the elite Praetorian Guard could have been in that situation and reacted in the same way. > > > Was Jesus really dead? Jesus was beaten with a cat-of-nine-tails, slapped > > in the head and face repeatedly, punctured in several places with a > > crown of thorns (these thorns were about 3 inches long), spit upon, > > made to carry his own heavy cross to calvary, and nailed to the cross. > > How much can a man take? To survive all of that would be a MIRACLE! > > > > T. J. Thorburn -"The victims of crucifixion seldom recovered, even under > > the most favorable circumstances." > > "Seldom" is not quite the same as "never". You have just destroyed your > own case here. He forgot three pieces of evidence without which the above objection would be valid. 1) Somebody rammed a spear into his side. We aren't talking your dainty little lance that looks like an olympic javelin here. We're talking about a broad-headed spear that's going to cut a good two-three inch wide swath at the very least. The idea was to make sure the criminal was dead, so it probably was directed up from the abdominal cavity into the chest cavity. Then it was reported that blood and water came out. I have heard a coronor's explanation of this but I can't remember it. But basically, the only way that you would get water out of a body like that would be if the person had already died. 2) The Romans weren't stupid. They knew when someone was dead. It is still POSSIBLE that Jesus was alive when he was taken down, but extremely unlikely. Even then, (I know that this is just an extension of the quoted argument, but it is an extension that you didn't answer) given the fact that Jesus looked bad enough to the guards to allow his followers to take him away, it is extremely unlikely that he could have recovered. 3) His body was embalmed. That means that his blood was drained. If you can survive having a large portion of your blood drained from your body, without any replacement, perhaps we should begin wondering whether you are more than just a man. (But then that is a pretty big 'if'.) > > ... Paul was a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, a member of the Sanhedrin, > > and a student of the great Jewish Rabbi, Gamaliel. Why would Paul suddenly > > on one of his roundups, give up all of his prestige and position, to > > serve a being of which he had been persecuting the followers of, knowing > > that he too would soon be persecuted. > > Maybe he guilt tripped? It has been known to happen. > Guilt tripped about something that he believed was right? How many religious fanatics (which is what Paul was) "guilt trip"???? > > Phenomenal growth even through persecution. The church grew by the millions > > in the first century. The more they were put to death for their faith, > > the more they attracted others who marvelled at their behaviour. > > So what? What has any of this got to do with the validity of the resurrection? > The drug culture here thrives in spite of persecution. > With a very physically and psychologically addictive substance at the heart of the issue. Christianity might be "addictive", but then, perhaps that is just more evidence that there is some substance to it. There's more than one way to be savage Lowell Savage