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From: samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: inappropriate debating tactics
Message-ID: <594@sfmag.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 3-Jun-85 12:29:10 EDT
Article-I.D.: sfmag.594
Posted: Mon Jun  3 12:29:10 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 02:27:57 EDT
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> Wait a second, lets not escalate things here.  As far as I ever heard on
> this net or elsewhere there is no justification for hating homosexuals in
> the hallacha and no one has claimed there is.  

I don't know if your halachic statement is correct, but it is true that
I did not address hatred. My point was to fight ATTITUDES which encourage
or condone homosexuality.  However, there is definitely basis in halacha for
fighting and hating those who campaign to corrupt Jewish morality. (This
was discussed on the net a few months ago.) I prefer to point out how such
people are illogical  and hypocritical rather than discussing hatred. Often
this brings a hateful reaction from them, which exposes their true nature.

> ...  I believe that the punishment for 
> desecrating the sabbath is worse than that for a homosexual act.  Thus one
> can infer that active homosexuals are bad but not as bad as reform Jews.  

The mishna in Sanhedrin states that one is permitted to intervene to prevent
a (male) homosexual act by killing the would-be perpetrator, if necessary.
This is not true with respect to shabbos violators.  This would seem to
contradict your conclusion.

> Of course I might have missed something and Samet either could be debating
> from some different understanding of the hallacha or inconsistent with his
> own beliefs (I am inconsistent so he can be too).

To clarify, I presented arguments from two points of view:

1) From a Torah standpoint, condemnation of homosexuality is self-consistent,
since the Torah regards this as evil. 

2) Even from a non-Torah standpoint, the approach typified by R. Rosen is
riddled with internal inconsistencies.

> Anyway claiming that
> he is preaching hatred is adding emotionalism unnecessarily.  We don't need
> to help increase entropy it does quite well on its own.

I agree that the central issues have been clouded by irrelevant and unfactual
charges.  Unfortunately, entropy is irreversible. 

				Yitzchok Samet