Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site fortune.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!fortune!brower From: brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: inappropriate debating tactics Message-ID: <5310@fortune.UUCP> Date: Tue, 4-Jun-85 17:05:21 EDT Article-I.D.: fortune.5310 Posted: Tue Jun 4 17:05:21 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 02:44:33 EDT References: <682@mtx5d.UUCP> <5306@fortune.UUCP> <588@sfmag.UUCP> <1011@pyuxd.UUCP> <9986@rochester.UUCP> Reply-To: brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard brower) Organization: Fortune Systems, Redwood City, CA Lines: 38 Keywords: debating homosexuals Summary: In article <9986@rochester.UUCP> sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) writes: >> Samet preaches hatred for homosexuals. [EXHIBITS IN EVIDENCE] >Wait a second, lets not escalate things here. As far as I ever heard on >this net or elsewhere there is no justification for hating homosexuals in >the hallacha and no one has claimed there is. To put words in Yitzchak (sp?) >Samet's mouth, I believe he said that homosexual acts are not legal acts >according to the Talmud. These acts carry a certain punishment and from that >we can judge how bad an act it is. I believe that the punishment for >desecrating the sabbath is worse than that for a homosexual act. Thus one >can infer that active homosexuals are bad but not as bad as reform Jews. >Of course I might have missed something and Samet either could be debating >from some different understanding of the hallacha or inconsistent with his >own beliefs (I am inconsistent so he can be too). Anyway claiming that >he is preaching hatred is adding emotionalism unnecessarily. We don't need >to help increase entropy it does quite well on its own. >-David Sher Obviously, you haven't been following this discussion, David. I'll quote Samet: "The Mishna in Sanhedrin equates someone attempting a homosexual act with an attempted rapist or murderer, and permits us to intervene by killing the perpetrator." As far as I am concerned, anyone claiming any justification for murdering me, equating my actions with those of murderers or rapists, and claiming that "We should wage war against the fools and reshoim who attempt to soften the social sanctions which were always in place, among decent Jews and non-Jews.", is engaged in the practice of hatred against me. I do not care if his actions are based on some so-called Holy Book. Until recently, Jewish people have only attempted to impose their biblical laws on other Jews. I won't make major objection to that method of practice, but when anybody starts to attempt to apply their religious rules to non-believers, they are stepping out of line. Samet also shows an astounding lack of historical perspective on this issue. Jews have been surrounded by cultures practicing homosexuality as a normal lifestyle until very recently compared to the greater than 6000 years of Jewish history.