Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site pyuxd.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxd!rlr From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Arthur Pewtey) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Re: Refuting Abominable Logic Message-ID: <1052@pyuxd.UUCP> Date: Tue, 4-Jun-85 22:32:57 EDT Article-I.D.: pyuxd.1052 Posted: Tue Jun 4 22:32:57 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 04:25:52 EDT References: <411@oakhill.UUCP> <564@sfmag.UUCP> Organization: The Chartered Accountants Who Want to Be Lion Tamers Association Lines: 77 > Why do people assume, because the Torah said not to tolerate > abominations, that we are hateful of them. [ELIYAHU TEITZ] Assume? I would say that seeking to punish those who engage in practices not harmful to other human beings that you simply don't like is quite equivalent to hatred. I would think a Jew would recognize those who would punish Jews for their practices as no different than this. >>> Your question was how do I dare not to tolerate homosexuality and >>> how can I take an intolerant stance, since anyone can take an >>> intolerant stance towards me. >> >>Amazing how the last refuge of the blatantly intolerant is always "But you're >>being intolerant of my intolerance, so there!" >> > Rich, you leave yourself wide open to the same criticism. So far, > you have shown as much intollerance on this net as anyone else. But your's > is of course in the holy name of tolerance. Why is tolerance so holy ? Precisely because it is the only way different groups of human beings can expect to share a planet without mass destruction. If that's not important, then just say so. Who was it that said "extremism in the defense of liberty is a virtue"? Moreover, notice that the only ones who label me intolerant would be those who advocate intolerance themselves. > I agree tat we should not force religion on anyyone who doesn't want it. But > we should state for the record that there are those who feel justified in > not tolerating certain things. You yourself do not tolerate intolerance. Above I have stated the difference between being intolerant of people who are doing nothing to interfere in others' lives and being intolerant of people who are doing PLENTY to interfere in others' lives. If you don't value freedom from interference in the lives of individuals, if you place higher value on what society would wish, then realize that if society is more important than individuals, a society that 'decided' that individual people were interfering in its operation could simply get rid of its people so that things would run smoother. And do recall what I said above about "the last refuge of the intolerant". You would seem to seek refuge in it yourself above. > Religious Jews do not tolerate what the Torah says should not be tolerated. > Granted, some religious people take this too far, but there are certain > areas where they are right. And homosexuality is one of them. It should > not be tolerated. Why? Because "it says so"? What is your basis for determining which things are being taken "too far" and which aren't. > This doesn't mean we should hate the homosexual. We should try to educate > him. Not force the religion on him. Rather, show him what religion is all > about. Right. Tell him to live his life your way, which is so obviously right while his is wrong. > I'm sure if you looked at Judaism objectively, > without any preconceived notions, you, too, would see many beautiful things > in it. The main thrust of Judaism is to be tolerant. But, there are things > that cannot be tolerated. Surely, you do not tolerate falsehoods. The Torah > too, does nottolerate it. Thus, because the Torah does not condone something I would find offensive, I shold thus take all of it part and parcel? > I do not want to get into the argument of whether the Torah is > authentic and whether it should be followed since neither of us would > convince the other differently than we already believe. But, given that > the Torah exists, and there are those who follow it, and you must, by > your own standards tolerate them; then, they are justified in their > intolerance. As were the Nazis justified in their intolerance that led to the slaughter of six million Jews. You can have one without the other. -- "There! I've run rings 'round you logically!" "Oh, intercourse the penguin!" Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr