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From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re:Re: Men: you are not individuals (Bull!)
Message-ID: <193@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 3-Jun-85 11:47:45 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.193
Posted: Mon Jun  3 11:47:45 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 5-Jun-85 00:36:25 EDT
References: <762@oddjob.UUCP>
Distribution: net
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
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> <>
> 
> >> me (David London)
> > Jeff Sonntag
> 
> >> ... So now I no longer object
> >> to the phrase "Men do...". One *can* describe a large group of people by a
> >> number of characteristics, some good and bad. 
>   
> >     Certainly, one *can*.  Once can say: 'Women are no good at engineering',
> >or 'Blacks are shiftless and lazy.' or 'Jews have big noses.'  Of course, if
> >one *does* say these things, then one is guilty of incorrect generalizations,
> >racism, and sexism.  Why do you think it should be different when the group
> >being generalized is 'men'?
> 
> All you have shown is that one can make incorrect generalizations, not that
> generalizations are not valid - they may be. You can even make valid and 
> useful generalizations about blacks, Jews, women, etc.., without being 
> bigotted.
> 
> Try these:
> 1. Blacks, in the U.S., after suffering discrimination for so many years, 
>    have a "collective inferiority complex", which also must be overcome to 
>    correct the effects of discrimination.
> 2. Jews have a history of promoting learning and education among their 
>    children, which may account for the fact that so many of our great scholars
>    over the last 100 years (for instance) are Jewish: e.g. Einstein, Marx, 
>    Freud.
> 3. Men (in our society) have treated, and continue to treat, women very badly.
>    Women have been made to feel inferior, and been made to feel as if they
>    could not do things men can. Among (many) other things, this sort of 
>    attitude has been promoted (by men) by such phrases as 'Women are no good
>    at engineering'.
> 
It is very true that certain statements *can* be valid statements of 
averages: blacks may in fact have a greater average preference for fried
chicken than whites (although I doubt it), but making the assertion that
it is only necessary for us to get the *right* prejudices demonstrates
the fallacy of collectivism (saying racism, sexism, religious bigotry, etc.
is getting to be laborious to right).  The *average* woman may feel that
"women are no good at engineering", but an average is just that --- I
know women who became engineers because they didn't feel that way.  
Viewing all men as identical because of some notion of *averages*, is
only slightly more intelligent than the bigot who says, "All blacks
like to dance."

> 
> 					David London
> 					..!ihnp4!oddjob!london