Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!pesnta!pertec!kontron!cramer
From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: More individuality and men's responsibilities.
Message-ID: <203@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 5-Jun-85 11:41:26 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.203
Posted: Wed Jun  5 11:41:26 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 06:16:36 EDT
References: <766@oddjob.UUCP>
Distribution: net
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
Lines: 42

> Point 3: (generalizations)
> In the above point, I have said "Men do ...". I believe Jeff would object to
> this, vis:
> >>3. Men (in our society) have treated, and continue to treat, women very badly.
> >>   Women have been made to feel inferior, and been made to feel as if they
> >>   could not do things men can. Among (many) other things, this sort of 
> >>   attitude has been promoted (by men) by such phrases as 'Women are no good
> >>   at engineering'.
> 
> >  The problem with this type of generalization is the same as the problem in
> >   the following generalization:
> >    "Dogs are black."
> >  What's that?  Only some dogs are black?  You think my generalization about
> >  dogs is incorrect?  How is it different from your generalization about men?
> 
> Jeff, I think you're being a bit stubborn here. My generalization attempts 
> to explain the reasons for a certain feature of society. I assume you will
> agree that women are treated badly. I ask why? If you answer, "Well, society
> treats them badly.", this is not an explanation. To be precise, "society" 
> doesn't treat anyone in any particular way (although I've used the phrase) -
> people do. And the people who have the power, the people who make the rules,
> are men. *Men* have created these attitudes. Your example doesn't answer any
> questions, it's just a statement with no importance attached to it.
> 
The above paragraph asserts that "society" equals rule makers, and that
rule makers equals (all) men.  Rule makers include a lot of women, many
of whom see women in a subservient role, and some of whom even like it
that way.  (Like Madonna.)  Also, even if all the rules associated with
"society" were made exclusively by men, all men don't make the rules.
Your generalization is still wrong.

> (By the way, Jeff, I suggest that you avoid such statements as, "I think X.
> You think Y. You're wrong." It's just childish, and diminishes the importance
> of the rest of what you may have to say. If you want to stop, just say 
> something like, "I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.")
> 
> 					David London
> 					..!ihnp4!oddjob!london

"The sky is orange with magenta stripes."  "You are wrong."  "That just
being childish --- it diminishes the importance of the rest of what
you may have to say."