Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site sbcs.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!sbcs!debray From: debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Language Flamage and net.mcp Message-ID: <311@sbcs.UUCP> Date: Sat, 1-Jun-85 11:19:26 EDT Article-I.D.: sbcs.311 Posted: Sat Jun 1 11:19:26 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Jun-85 10:17:02 EDT References: <256@spar.UUCP> <5354@tekecs.UUCP> <264@spar.UUCP> Organization: Computer Science Dept, SUNY@Stony Brook Lines: 78 > >> Michael Ellis (ME) > > Jeff Winslow. > > >> The fact that Bengali .. has lost gender distinctions only > >> excludes this language from those that might have any bearing on Marie's > >> hypothesis. > >> > >The hypothesis is beside the point. > > BOGUS!! > > How can Marie's OWN HYPOTHESIS be `BESIDE THE POINT' in a conversation > WHICH SHE STARTED!!! > Frankly, Ellis, yelling (whose ascii equivalent I see in your use of upper case and multiple exclamation marks) is not usually a very convincing mode of argument. Nor, for that matter, is name-calling (see subject line). > Marie's hypothesis suggested that the unfairness of our generics (ie. > {man,he} used to refer to both sexes) might be due to the traditional > male domination of our society. > > Now you and others would not only discredit her hypothesis with > irrelevant arguments ... Maybe you'll also tell me, some day, _why_ my arguments are so irrelevant! While I'm waiting, let me tell you why I think my (and, if I can presume to speak for Jeff, his) arguments might be relevant: The issue here is the extent to which language embodies societal attitudes, e.g. sexism. If you can demonstrate that sexism is inherent in the languages of sexist societies, I'll buy the arguments about changing language to change society; otherwise, I'd suggest you bark up another tree. In my opinion, hypotheses about the etymologies of our generics are interesting (in this discussion) only to the extent that they relate to this central issue. In a previous article, I'd argued against the thesis that "sexism is in the language" by suggesting that experiential generalization might play an important role in associating images with words, e.g. "cheerleader" evokes a female image while "chef" evokes a male one, because people usually see female cheerleaders and male chefs. If sexism was inherent in the languages of sexist societies, then one would expect it to be reflected in their generics as well. I gave some examples to show that this is not the case. Bengali, for example, has just one, gender-neutral third person pronoun; so does Hindi, and a half-dozen other Sanskrit-based languages [Sanskrit came from the Aryan tribes that later invaded Europe, so my examples aren't all that far removed]. These societies, unfortunately, are as sexist as ever (Bengali is my mother tongue, and after twenty years I know the society fairly well). Reasoning by analogy, it isn't obvious that (a) changing the generics of English will result in fundamental changes in the attitudes of this society, or (b) that not changing these generics will result in unchanging societal attitudes. I would argue that the greater visibility of women in traditionally male- dominated professions is a more potent agent of change than any amount of linguistic twiddling. Personally, I applaud this greater visibility. > Other newsgroups provide a forum wherein the avowed goal of that > group can be discussed without undue harassment. But this group > has ALWAYS been overpopulated by an overwhelming majority of > `knee-jerk male enginerds' who seem determined to prevent any > feminist sentiment whatsoever from receiving fair treatment. Ellis, if you choose to use a particular linguistic style, that's your prerogative ... I mean, hey, DoD's sinking megabucks into Ada, right? But try not to sound so damned sanctimonious, OK? I hate to disillusion you, but your identification of "disagreement" with "harassment" isn't exactly watertight. And less of name-calling and more of rational discussion would probably bolster your position quite a bit ... -- Saumya Debray SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {allegra, hocsd, philabs, ogcvax} !sbcs!debray arpa: debray%suny-sb.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNet: debray@sbcs.csnet