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From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Women vs. women in the workplace
Message-ID: <230@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 12-Jun-85 12:49:44 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.230
Posted: Wed Jun 12 12:49:44 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 13-Jun-85 02:33:07 EDT
References: <1598@amdcad.UUCP>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
Lines: 95

> I've seen a great deal about changing men's attitudes, but what about
> changing women's attitudes.  Some of the worst experiences a woman
> can have on the job or at a university may be because of other
> (non-feminist) women.  Examples:
> 
> (1)  Many women wear high heels and bleach their hair blond not
> because it's prettier or more comfortable, but because it will
> get them ahead professionally.  When some anti-feminist men in
> management see these symbols they believe that these women
> are "nicer" and less aptly to cause trouble, therefore these
> women are often favored.  Also, some women will bleach their
> hair blond to look more "white", in order to complete with
> dark skinned and minority women.  There seem to be some
> male managers who fall all over blondes. 
> 

Maybe it's just because I'm part of the post-Marilyn Monroe generation,
but if I were influenced on the job by how a woman looked, blonde
would *not* be the way.  Just goes to show you that no matter how
manipulative someone is, there's no way to tell what's going in someone
else's head.  Also, this notion that women, in trying to be blonde,
are trying to look more "white" seems like paranoid crap.  I have never
met a white who was so dark that there was any question about his or
her race.

There are some male managers who fall all over blondes; there are
plenty who fall all over brunettes; I know of a few female managers
who have allowed a guy's good looks to affect job-related activities.

> (2)  It is a common practice for non-feminist women in the workplace
> to start trouble (untrue gossip or complaints about a technical
> matter) against other women, in order to show anti-feminist managers
> that they will not push for promotions of more women.  I saw a
> female manager do this by avoiding hiring a woman who applied for
> a job.  I have seen two cases, during my career, of women who
> were rewarded highly for getting other women fired.  If you're
> really technically competent it is easy to blow this type of
> person out of the water and defend yourself, but often the
> target may be a recently-promoted former secretary who doesn't have
> much self confidence yet.
> 

It is a common practice for people in general to gossip about others,
and occasionally this leads to people getting fired.  The rest of
this assertion requires knowledge of intentions, which unless explicitly
stated, may simply be paranoia.

> (3)  There are some women who, at meetings, will make faces or
> snicker when another woman talks.  If you confront the woman
> or complain about her, then you will be labelled as a trouble
> maker.  Of course, you can ask her if she's not feeing well
> and if she needs an asprin.
> 

I've never been in a meeting like that.  Where do you work?

> (4)  One time in one of my classes, another graduate student
> (female) came in every week and sat next to the professor
> (we all sat at a table).  She would wear provocative clothing,
> such as a sweatshirt and tights (with no shorts or skirt),
> very high heels, and lots of make-up.  She never did any of
> the assignments.  (and she criticized one of mine very strongly
> in class - luckily, the professor defended my work).  One
> day, in the middle of a discussion, she burst out with "I
> don't see why we have to do all of this - it's all so DIFFICULT!".
> When it came time for grades - she got the same grade as mine.
> My complaint about it only aliented the professor, who essentially
> felt that it was none of my business.  (Music composition classes
> are not graded by numerical scores like math classes).
> 

That's one of the problem with classes which are entirely subjective.
Just possibly, she may have done work as good as yours.  Who are you
to say differently in a class like music composition?  Incidentally,
I remember a young woman in my freshman chemistry class at USC who
pretended to be a dumb blonde; in fact, she was not --- she was real
bright, but for some reason felt this approach would get her more
attention from young men.  (What a shame --- I can't *stand* women
hiding their intelligence.)

One other comment about Ms. Provocative in your class --- do you understand
why some guys have a hard time taking a woman seriously?  For a lot of
guys, Ms. Provocative has been the norm, not the exception.  Is it
possible the biggest enemy of women's liberation is women who aren't
competent to deal with men on any level except as sex kitten?

> Does anyone have suggestions on how to influence women's
> attitudes towards other women, and on how to get the men
> to care about going on, without appearing to be
> a "complainer"?
> 
> 					Linda Seltzer

Do the best job you can, and don't go looking for your problems in
other people.