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From: ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Pride
Message-ID: <317@spar.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 11-Jun-85 14:21:09 EDT
Article-I.D.: spar.317
Posted: Tue Jun 11 14:21:09 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 16-Jun-85 00:42:11 EDT
References: <256@spar.UUCP> <5354@tekecs.UUCP> <264@spar.UUCP> <1446@watdcsu.UUCP>
Reply-To: ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis)
Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA
Lines: 42

>  {David Canzi}

>>     *Women have no business being proud when other women overcome the
>>	historical male prejudice in our society.
>
>Once again, briefly.  I have been suggesting that it doesn't make sense
>for men/women/blacks to go around being proud/ashamed of the deeds/misdeeds
>of other members of their sex/race.  A special case of this is that it
>makes no sense for women to be proud, etc...  By quoting this special
>case out of the context of the generality, you can create a false
>impression of what was being said.

     Your general statement is nearly as asinine the special case,
     though I tend to agree with you about shame, which ideally has
     no place in my life.

     The establishment of a general feeling of `group pride' was critical in
     the growth of the Black, Gay, and Women's movements, not just as
     a means of establishing solidarity and a group spirit, but also
     as a partial cure for the `low self-esteem' typically experienced
     by individuals in those groups.

     Now you tell net.women readers that it is wrong to feel proud when
     another person breaks the chains of the past? Why?  
     
     Would you prefer that the women's movement fade away?

     Thanks a lot for your helpful wisdom.

     Regardless of what you say, there have even been a few men who make me
     proud -- even if most of them are DEAD.

     Like John Lennon, for instance, who set a magnificent image.  How many
     famous men do YOU know who have stayed at home and played the nurturing
     role? It does not strike me as at all odd that he was assassinated.

     Anyway, if you do not understand, too bad. This newsgroup already
     receives so many comments that seem to be directed against the few
     feminist articles to appear, I suppose your remarks are but another
     straw.

-michael