Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site watdcsu.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!watnot!watdcsu!dmcanzi From: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Pride Message-ID: <1478@watdcsu.UUCP> Date: Mon, 17-Jun-85 02:01:18 EDT Article-I.D.: watdcsu.1478 Posted: Mon Jun 17 02:01:18 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 17-Jun-85 04:20:03 EDT References: <256@spar.UUCP> <5354@tekecs.UUCP> <264@spar.UUCP> <1446@watdcsu.UUCP> <317@spar.UUCP> Reply-To: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario Lines: 81 Summary: In article <317@spar.UUCP> ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) writes: >>Once again, briefly. I have been suggesting that it doesn't make sense >>for men/women/blacks to go around being proud/ashamed of the deeds/misdeeds >>of other members of their sex/race. ... > > Your general statement is nearly as asinine the special case, > though I tend to agree with you about shame, which ideally has > no place in my life. When you feel that some deed of yours is good, you typically feel pride. When you feel that some deed of yours is bad, you typically feel shame. In these cases, pride and shame are a result of your judgement of your actions. Pride and shame are mirror images of each other. If you feel pride when somebody else who resembles you (eg. of the same race or sex) does something good, on what grounds can you exclude being ashamed if that person does something bad? > The establishment of a general feeling of `group pride' was critical in > the growth of the Black, Gay, and Women's movements, not just as > a means of establishing solidarity and a group spirit, but also > as a partial cure for the `low self-esteem' typically experienced > by individuals in those groups. Which meaning of the word pride do you intend here? Pride (self respect) or pride (feeling of accomplishment)? I've been talking about one, and you're talking about the other. The 'group pride' you're talking about is, or should be, nothing more than individual self-respect. It's self-respect that makes it possible for an individual to recognize that a situation is unfair to him/her. (People with too little self-respect tend to think that they deserve it when they get a raw deal.) So, liberation movements such as those you mentioned, have to encourage self-respect in their members before they can do anything else. > Now you tell net.women readers that it is wrong to feel proud when > another person breaks the chains of the past? Why? Consider yer basic white racist. He feels proud of the accomplishments of other whites, ie. his opinion of himself is improved by contemplating them. If the accomplishments of other whites reflects on the wonderfulness of this white, by the same reasoning it reflects on every white. By this line of reasoning, the entire white race can be declared to be great and wonderful on the basis of a few splendid examples. The premise of the argument is that there are great white people (which is true), but the conclusion is false. Therefore, the argument is invalid. Now, consider a woman, whose opinion of herself is somewhat enhanced by the contemplation of the accomplishments of other women. Clearly, if the accomplishments of other women reflect on her own wonderfulness, by the same reasoning they reflect on every woman. By this line of reasoning, the entire female gender can be declared to be great and wonderful on the basis of a few splendid examples. This is exactly the same argument as in the previous paragraph, except for a substitution of terms. It is part of the nature of logic that invalid arguments do not become valid by substituting terms. My opinion is that the fallacy in the argument is in judging oneself on the basis of the accomplishments of other people who are like one in some way. > Would you prefer that the women's movement fade away? Do you think that the women's movement can't hold itself together without relying on bad logic? > Thanks a lot for your helpful wisdom. You're welcome. -- David Canzi ...being a man involves accepting what and who we are without either shame or pride. P.S. Pardon the apparent sexism of the quote above, the man who wrote it is gay. Many gay men worry about the question "Am I a man?" P.P.S. I'm on vacation, and won't be around to take part in the shouting matches for the next three weeks.