Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 exptools; site ihlpa.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie From: zubbie@ihlpa.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: RE:Last Nite ( a LONG) letter to men Message-ID: <340@ihlpa.UUCP> Date: Mon, 17-Jun-85 23:18:41 EDT Article-I.D.: ihlpa.340 Posted: Mon Jun 17 23:18:41 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 19-Jun-85 01:37:18 EDT Distribution: net Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 341 I have receive may different flavors of response to some of my recent postings and in several cases I have been asked to seriously answer some questions which were stirred up in the minds of the people I received the notes from . Some I have answered directly and some I have not been able to because of a bad path or something. I have however received enough mail to bog down my login for a week and so it seems thatmaybe the rest of the net might be interested in my thughts. If not then NOW is the time to n passed the rest of this very long article. Jeanette zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie To the people whose mail I quote in this posting - If your thoughts were not very important they would not be included here. JLZ Charlie, Here is a copy of a letter to another Charles about the same questions you had. Also folloing is your note and I will also try to answer any other questions in that. Jeanette ******************************************************************************** Charles, To clarify matters; If you have been following my postings in net.women lately you will notice 2 distinctly different responses. 1) To the fellow who's name I deliberately forgot which was rather obscene and more than stupid I replied rather quietly 2) to Joe, who appeared on the surface, to be sincere in his opinions I seemed vicious. In both instances the reply was actually metered to cause the individual concerned to rethink his position. In Joe's case the viciousness results because he holds the same attitudes and opinions you appear to. I am taking the trouble to explain this because it is extremely IMPORTANT. The fact that the differences are so different blinds men ( ingeneral) to the notion that the situation we are talking about (male/female responses to potentially dangerous situations) is more than somewhat serious from a woman's viewpoint. To us the mere fact that the circustance exists is a threat which we live with. To have it physically materialize is enough to cause grave psychological damage RIGHT NOW not a day or week or month down the road. This plus the imminent threat to our physical selves for which most women are not equipped to protect themselves from either because of the difference in size, strength, etc or through temperment which by reason of our upbringing causes women (again in general) to feel threatened or diminished by males. If the differences were easy to see from your side then they would indeed make the situation something which could be laughed off but as you should now dimly see they are not. The reason, therefor, for the explosiveness of my response is because of the danger that this type of attitude will be given any credence by other men in any way at all. Perhaps the hardest thing in the world to do on this net or via a keyboard is to convey the depth of emotion which women must deal with which has no male analog. I will however concede that males can learn to approximate the horror and fear and revulsion which is a woman's experience in such situations. That and the FACT that it DOES NOT GO AWAY. The feelings stirred up in such an encounter live and eat away at our self image until eventually if enough of them happen we begin to slip as people and become walking talking bags of explosive paranoia in which all the world then contributes to the degeneration. I hope that helps explain why it is necessary to be vicious to the soft spoken apparently concerned individual while treating the out and out louse with a bit of compassion. Jeanette Zobjeck { Jeannette, { Is this kind of name calling really called for? Do you really think { it helps your cause? Did you really *read* what he said? He made { some good points. Was he wrong that the woman was safely in a car at { some distance from the exhibitionist? Was she really in any danger? { Put your vitriol aside for a while and honestly answer my questions to { yourself and then re-read the article that you found so offensive. If { nothing else, it should become obvious that he was suggesting what the { ideal should *in his opinion* be. Or shouldn't men be allowed to have { opinions? Men need to have and to voice opinions in women issues. There would be no women doctors today if a male doctor had not stepped in and testified that a patient who died in the first woman-run hospital under the care of a woman doctor had in fact been incurable and praised the conduct and treatment of the female doctors and staff of the hsopital. There will be no progress in any feminist advancement without males (even if some of us would wish that that were not necessary). { The attitude that you so obviously displayed in your followup will { only drive away those who are trying to understand and to support your { cause. { In any case, perhaps you can, instead of displaying your hate, explain { to me and, if you like, to the net why he is wrong. Don't give me any { platitudes (yes, I know it's the wrong word) about second class { citizenry. *Explain* exactly why you think that a woman, save in her { vehicle, shouldn't be just as amused by a man exhibiting himself as a { man would be at a woman doing so as described. { { Your followup article follows for your convenient reference. { { Charlie Charlie, Above I copied a letter I wrote on the same subject to some one else. To you I ad this: The term "2nd Class Citizen" is not one I coined and perhaps it is a bit trite but it points up something which men too often forget. The black, red, yellow and brown skinned people in this country were and are discriminated against because of their difference. Women suffer from a slightly different form of discrimination. We are **protected** even from ourselves. Perhaps that sounds silly at first but think about it a little bit. What is the genralization behind almost all women's rights issues. Now I admit we have more things on the list which don't fall into that catagory but as you see, we have been held backk FOR OUR OWN GOOD. this is where women get the right to claim 2nd class citizen status not from some cliche ridden speach inthe 50's or early 60's/ { { > > removed from the potential assailent). My point is the difference in { > > attitude toward the same situation between a male and a female. The { > > male attitude, as demonstrated by both Jeff and myself, is one of { > > amusement. The female attitude as illustrated by Ellen's incident, { > > is one of fear and anger. I realize that the fear of rape in almost { > > any encounter with a male, engendered by incidents such as those { > > recounted recently in this newsgroup, can make such a difference. { > > But isn't the ideal such that there would BE NO DIFFERENCE in the { > > male and female attitude to such an incident? It seems to me that { > > Ellen's attitude exacerbates the difference by assuming the { > > negative, pessimistic posture regarding the situation when it was { > > really an insignificant thing. { > { > { > INSIGNIFICANT!!!! { > You Blithering fool. Maybe you just cant think let alone read. { > The primary reason that it was NOT insignificant is the simple fact that { > women have been 2nd class people for so long that you simply cant imagine { > what the difference is!!! { > OK so here is your biggest gripe and for good reason. My vehemence strikes a chord deep inside which says OUCH. The truth is there and you can feel it but you never thought about it that way before. Ideal situations usually don't even exist in laboratories. I would sell my soul to be able to see the day when there would be no difference. Ellen Eades was not assuming anything she was spelling it out just like it is every day all over the world for women in every occupation or vocation. It really isn't an insignificant thing,..we so far can only wish that it will be someday. { { > not so divergent the ability to understand would be universal. { > { { What? { Is it safe to assume that you opt for the former? { I don't really opt for either - I would rather the case didn't exist. but with the assumption as necessary today YES I would dearly love to have men really know what and why women feel as they do so they would not be so ready to underestimate the power of the moment. Maybe you as one man can and do know this personally, maybe you know others who are as empathic, but how many MORE are there who don't? { > { > > { > > I have one other thing to say regarding MY attitude to this incident, { > > which is that I have several friends who live in the French Quarter { > > of New Orleans where such incidents as Ellens happen not infrequently { > > (both male and female) and so I admit that my attitude may be biased { > > towards the lighter side. But really, I'd rather laugh about { > > something than be upset about it. { > > { > we all would but there is nothing laughable about it. { > { { Why? { (Remember, no more name calling, now. I really want to know.) { I'm not name calling Charlie - other than for emphasis - the ability to laugh is mankind's greatest asset and the greatest curse. An asset because laughter can be a great and powerful medicine to smooth our way through life and make this world a little more beautiful and a nicer place to be. A curse because laughter can be used to hurt and worse laughter can be used to diminish the importance on a situation and that is not only bad it is worng. The lighter side of being a woman today is truly wonderful the lighter side of being alive today is fantastic the lighter side does not extend to this area because so little has been done to make it any less traumatic. { > > I imagine I may now seem more unsympathetic than ever, but that's not { > > so. I sympathize with Ellen's anger and if she were a friend I'd do { > > my best to comfort her, but I cannot *empathize* with her position as I { > > do not really understand it. { > > -- { > > Joe Arceneaux { > > { > { > No, Joe, you are not unsympathetic - just pathetic. { { Oh, come on now! { { > { > If Ellen were your friend I would expect that you would be ready and desirous { > of much more than comforting here. { { What, specifically, do you have in mind? Imagine ( and this is deliberately simplified to make typing it less of a novel sized endeavor). You, Take your dog out for it's evening walk. You are acosted by a stranger who drags you into some nearby bushes and beats the living tar out of you, kill's your dog and robs you, takes your identification and leaves you for dead. Somehow, You struggle to the street and a passing police patrol picks you up and takes you to a hospital. There you recount what happens to you. ALL during your statement the cop remains impassive but when you're done he leaves you with the distinct impression that in some way you were robbed and beaten because you "asked for it" and no matter what you say or do that feeling hangs with you. To make matters worse your boss and your friends and neighbors and even total strangers who have read the news in the paper or seen it on TV or heard it on the radio begin to avoid you or worse yet they come by to offer their support and help but also just to see for themselves if just maybe you didnt really have someting to do with it beyond just being at the wrong place at the wrong time. { { > To many men are in your position and holding your attitudes about women. { > This is the primary reason that sexual bias still exists at all. { > { { Interesting! If we suggest that men and women are different we are { exhibiting sexual bias and if, as here, a man suggests that men and { women should respond similarly under similar circumstances, we are { *still* exhibiting sexual bias. { { What *DO* you want from us? Actually that is a rhetorical question. { It is pretty obvious from your posting that you want equality as long { as it favors you. If I thought all women had the same attitude, I, { for one, would be adamently opposed to granting anything that you ask { for. Fortunately, I'm not (yet) convinced that that is true so I { still support equal rights for *everyone*. { no Charlie, I will try and answer the question. I want to be myself and recognized for my ability and my inability which ever is greater. I want to be free to use my talents and abilities as the Lord saw fit to give me to make my life and that of those I love most a little bit nicer. I want only the recognition I earn and which is due me. Most of all I want a better world for my children than the one I grew up in. The bias Joe and other men show is perhaps not the cruel and demeaning bias which put women, or other minorities, down but rather a type of bias which ignores the differences which are limiting women and play up the ones which might tend to cut into men's world. I don't need to go to deeply into that as I have made several postings on the subject. To you, in attempting to make a fair answer I only mention it. { > { > jeanette l. zobjeck { > ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie { > You see Charlie I'm not the terrible whitch I come accross as but more correctly I am one woman who has seen how terrible this world can be and also how wonderful it can be. I would much prefer the latter and almost everything I do is aimed that way even though on the surface it does not seem so. I have learned many lessons then hard way that most men and women on this net have not. I conduct myself accordingly. I have experiences which have formed my personality and which have helped get me to where I am today and I know from experience what works - in general- and I try and use what I have to make this world just a little bit nicer each day. To quote my late fater: "I sometimes wonder each day if our mother really loves me, Jeanette. ....But then she'll give me hell for something and I know she really does care after all" ----Leanord Wm. Zobjeck (deceased) I guess my own version is: I consider the day a total waste less I catch hell from someone. the reasoning being only someone who cares will bother to become very upset when you mess something up. It is a small sign of needing and caring and it is just as important as a hug from that Special someOne in yor life which can brighten up a day which seems to be all down hill. If I didn't care what anyone thought I could have a real ball in life and it wouldnt matter to anyone but me but I guess i amstuck liking people even if I have only met them on the net. To anyone who cares: If each of us, each day, can diminish the amount of bias which we see around us pretty soon there won't be any left anywhere. jeanette l. zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie