Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!pesnta!pertec!kontron!cramer From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Discrimination and Affirmative Action Message-ID: <247@kontron.UUCP> Date: Mon, 17-Jun-85 15:30:47 EDT Article-I.D.: kontron.247 Posted: Mon Jun 17 15:30:47 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 19-Jun-85 04:24:15 EDT References: <338@unc.UUCP> <337@mhuxr.UUCP> <219@kontron.UUCP> <344@mhuxr.UUCP> Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA Lines: 97 > > Equal Employment Opportunity is a pledge by the employer > > that they will try very hard to give *everyone* an equal opportunity at > > a job. > > > Since AA is the implementation of the EEO promise, I see no contradiction here. > > > I found myself *frequently* running into people who > > worked for the big aerospace companies in this area who were, pure and > > simple, hired on account of their race. (Tragically, these same > > individuals usually find higher paying jobs with another aerospace > > company, still doing nothing.) > > The cases you cite are prime examples of the bad faith I referred to > in my original article (337@mhuxr.UUCP) An employer prefers hiring > unqualified people to making some effort to find qualified munirities > and women. I call that willful discrimination. Blaming it on the existence > of AA makes no sense to me. The whole point of AA is to try and *find* those > qualified female engineers and blacks. That government contractors refuse > to do so might be an insight on why our taxes pay for $600 ashtrays > and $400 toilet seats. > For reasons that have a lot to do with governmental discrimination in schooling, and somewhat to do with social tendencies towards racism, there is frequently a shortage of *qualified* female or black engineers. I am sure that this problem will go away over the next few years. Nonetheless, it seems reasonable to me that an employer would, if they needed to hire a minority or female engineer, would hire the best that they could find. The alternative is to believe that the racism is *so* widespread that employers can afford to hire unqualified workers without fear that their competitors (admittedly, few and far between in aerospace) will hire qualified minority or female engineers. I know few people who are that racist. > > "Blaming the concept of AA for these implementation flaws is throwing the > > baby out with the bathwater." You may recall that the Supreme Court > > threw out "separate but equal" because from a practical standpoint, it > > didn't seem to work out that way, most times. Similarly with affirmative > > action: if the actual implemented policies are racist and discriminatory, > > perhaps the idea needs to be re-evaluated. > > > Perhaps some lawyers on the net can set the recordstraight, but I was under > the impression that "Brown v Board of Education" found "separate but equal" > unconstitutional because of the concept of segregation rather than whatever > inequalities that resulted from its practice. > My understanding is that "Brown vs. Board of Education" threw out segregation because it wasn't implemented according to the rules that "Plessy vs. Ferguson" set up. It would have been much more honest to throw it out because segregation violates the Fourteenth Amendment guarantee of equal protection under the law --- something that affirmative action clearly violates. > An employer who willfully hires unqualified people is *not* living up > to EEO (a legal requirement) or to any AA plan (a voluntary implementation) > Remember, the government does not require that companies adopt AA plans, > just that they show reasonable progress in integrating their workforce. > Saying that a company isn't "required" to implement affirmative action is rather like saying, "Blacks weren't *required* to ride in the back of the bus --- they could have walked." When the government is redistributing wealth from taxpayers to government contractors, it is reasonable, just, and essential, to require that those contractors give everyone a fair shot at employment, regardless of race or sex --- affirmative action is not a fair shot. > > I have never lost out on a job because of affirmative action (at least > > to my knowledge). I certainly got screwed when it came to the granting > > of scholarships for college. There were a great many scholarships that > > were specifically reserved for blacks and Hispanics --- can you imagine > > the uproar if a public institution like my high school had assisted in > > administering scholarships that were limited to whites? (And with good > > reason there would be an uproar.) When it came time for me to go off > > to school, the University of California managed to find plenty of money > > for scholarships for "minority youth". In a color-blind environment, > > I would have gotten a scholarship also. In 1973, my parents combined > > income was $4700 a year (just below the poverty line); I graduated 28th > > in a graduating class of > 980; my SAT Scores were 700 and 690; and yet > > the people that administered scholarships at UCLA didn't think I needed > > any help. If race wasn't a factor, I'm not sure who the scholarships > > were going to. > > You of course know your own situation better than I, but let me > point out that there are scholarship funds with strings attached; in > othe words, the university may not have had one large pool of scholarship > money available. Besides, other considerations than grades and need > are used in awarding scholarship. > > Besides, you obviously did manage to get to college; you probably > succeeded in graduating and now hold, from all appearances, a quite decent > job. I fail to see how you were *hurt* by the University of California's > AA program (if such was indeed the reason you were denied a scholarship.) > > Marcel Simon I had to drop out of college do to funding problems; I did not graduate; fortunately, college is only necessary for a good job in software if you lack character or intelligence. (Then, a degree is essential.)