Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site alice.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!allegra!alice!jj From: jj@alice.UUCP Newsgroups: net.women,net.politics Subject: Re: Discrimination and AA Message-ID: <3882@alice.UUCP> Date: Fri, 21-Jun-85 11:38:44 EDT Article-I.D.: alice.3882 Posted: Fri Jun 21 11:38:44 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 23-Jun-85 03:05:48 EDT References: <496@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> Organization: New Jersey State Farm for the Terminally Bewildered Lines: 86 Xref: watmath net.women:6004 net.politics:9521 Damnit, Carnes, you can argue with me, but when you start implying that I'm a liar you've gone too far. Your offensive, totally off-the-wall presumption about "comfortable white males" screaming their heads off is RACIST, Carnes. RACIST! Look, damnit, I AM more or less comfortable nowdays, no thanks to either society, AA, racism (including that of national origin), or much of anything else but my own fighting for myself, my ulcers, and my blood pressure. People with your attitude have shortened my life, sir, by making their racist presuptions about "white males". Now, then, you say " would have us go back to the old days." No, Richard, that's NOT what most of the people whose articles I read would have us do. So, then, why do you suggest it, unless you're trying to malign a class of people? Consider the points about education that many have made. Are those points racist? It seems you have a blindess to the fact that not all white males were comfortable before AA started. I wasn't. I am now comfortable IN SPITE of AA policies that cost me money, time, jobs, food, support, etc, and I don't think I should have to hear myself maligned again and again because of that. I refuse to feel guilty, I refuse to let you call me a cheating, racist . If you are going to continue writing on AA matters, Richard, PLEASE be careful, and think more about whom you're talking about. I may be a bit sensitive right now, yes, after all, I just got back from spending a week in the hospital for something that was directly tracable to not having been able to afford proper medical care when I was in my early teens that was furthermore life threatening and VERY uncomfortable. I suppose that's evidence of my "comfortable white male" status to you, also? Perhaps since AA was in a sense responsible for that, and you support AA, I should charge you with assault? (Certainly that's legally and logically absurd, so I won't do it; the argument is no less farfetched than your own, sir.) Do I know that discrimination exists? Of course, I know it. I was born on the side of the tracks with the rest of the irish, black, and hispanic sorts. I knew all the other kids from that side of the tracks, and I have (not very fond) memories of sharing the battles with various school and business officials with them. It would be REAL hard not to know how discrimination works under those circumstances would it not? Well, why, then, does JJ NOT support AA? Well, he saw just what AA did when it hired. The people hired because of AA were TOLD that that was why they were hired. Most of them were also told to stay out of the road, and let the white men do the hard stuff. The title and salary of foreman, for example, doesn't mean much if you still sweep, and the union steward on your shift gives all the orders, does it now? In fact, it only shows up your helplessness even more thoroughly. There's a cute little book called "Hopelessness" by Seligman, perhaps you should read it. The problem, Richard, is that AA doesn't solve the problem. It only creates problems in practice. (Now, then I can imagine things that will HELP. I've listed some, and gotten exactly ZERO response from you, sir.) What MUST happen is that the racists must be forced to re-evaluate what's INSIDE THEIR HEADS, and realize that it's both advantageous and easier to realign their opinions and help. (Granted that some must be whacked upside the head...) The business of forcing quotas and the like only enforces racist policies, increases hatred, and causes more trouble. That's what happened, that's what is still happening some places, and that stinks. Until the discriminated against are EDUCATED, both in the scholastic sense and the psychological sense to be able to produce (and to simply NOT allow themselves to be stepped on) and the discriminating individuals are shown that it is NOT IN THEIR INTERESTS TO DISCRIMINATE, discrimination will exist, and likely flourish, AA completely aside. Please, Richard, I don't like racism any more than you do. Please be careful, and when you refer to "comfortable white males" remember that what you're doing is exactly what some people do to/for black people/women/hispanics/etc. I find myself uncomfortable in a roll that casts me as "anti anti-discrimination" in some people's eyes. I sincerely wish that such people would examine their own beliefs more carefully. -- TEDDY BEARS HAVE LIMITED PATIENCE! THEY DO EVENTUALLY GET HUNGRY! "Let us remember my cat, Geoffrey, ..." (ihnp4/allegra)!alice!jj