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From: flink@umcp-cs.UUCP (Paul V. Torek)
Newsgroups: net.philosophy
Subject: Re: Re: freedom and unpredictability
Message-ID: <750@umcp-cs.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 5-Jul-85 18:55:57 EDT
Article-I.D.: umcp-cs.750
Posted: Fri Jul  5 18:55:57 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 11-Jul-85 06:07:03 EDT
References: <325@spar.UUCP> <27500082@ISM780B.UUCP> <1123@pyuxd.UUCP> <541@umcp-cs.UUCP> <1151@pyuxd.UUCP>
Reply-To: flink@maryland.UUCP (Paul V. Torek)
Organization: U of Maryland, Computer Science Dept., College Park, MD
Lines: 36
Keywords: external; man
Summary: 

In article <1151@pyuxd.UUCP> rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) writes:
>>>I reiterate in case
>>>you missed it the first time:  "the belief that man's choices ultimately
>>>are or can be voluntary AND NOT DETERMINED BY EXTERNAL CAUSES" is the
>>>operative definition (or one of them offering a similar perspective).
>
>> Which dictionary was that?
>
>Why do you ask?

Because the definition you quoted above sounds like Ellis's.  (For all I
know though, maybe Ellis got his def. from the same dictionary as yours?)

>> Anyway, a tricky word here is "external".  I
>> suggest you look that one up, keeping in mind that the question "external
>> to what" would seem to have the answer "man" or "volition (<voluntary)",
>> based on the definition quoted.

>Not at all, Paul.  My first guess is "outside of the boundaries of".
>In looking it up, I find that summarizes most of the definitions, but I
>include another here for your own comments:  "4. <Philosophy> Existing
>independently of the mind; objective; phenomenal."

I think "outside the boundaries of" is the meaning that applies.  Outside
the boundaries of "man" or "volition".

>In any case, external causes would refer to the actions of the physical 
>world as having an effect on the mind or brain, which is what I've been 
>contending all along---the outside world, the physical world itself, is 
>what has effects on the rational evaluative analysis process, thus not
>making it free.

But those cause-and-effect chains go *through* the man (his sensory
system, his ratiocinations, etc.) and thus are *NOT* EXTERNAL to the
man!  So your argument fails.
				--Paul Torek, Iconbuster-in-chief