Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site sdcrdcf.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!oliveb!hplabs!sdcrdcf!faigin From: faigin@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Daniel Faigin) Newsgroups: net.news.group Subject: Net.Flame (purpose thereof) Message-ID: <2160@sdcrdcf.UUCP> Date: Tue, 16-Jul-85 16:50:59 EDT Article-I.D.: sdcrdcf.2160 Posted: Tue Jul 16 16:50:59 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 20-Jul-85 09:30:23 EDT Reply-To: faigin@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Daniel Faigin) Organization: System Development Corp. R+D, Santa Monica Lines: 119 Since I the flow of messages into my mailbox seems to have stopped, I thought I would post the remainder of the messages received. Daniel. ---- Remainder of received messages follows ---- From: seismo!mcvax!enea!kuling!andersa@ihnp4.UUCP (Anders Andersson) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 85 19:12:24 -0200 Organization: The Royal Inst. of Techn., Stockholm I don't read net.flame (I don't even think it's distributed to Europe, however we get a lot of it because of the cross-postings everywhere else). It seems that "net.flame" is used mainly as a pure *attribute* in the list of newsgroups, and not as a newsgroup itself. I can't see how there could be any reason to *start* a discussion in net.flame (about what?)! So, people just add that little string "net.flame" in the header to tell others that they are angry at something or somebody, when they follow up to a posting in another ("real") newsgroup. Probably they won't remove the original newsgroup(s), as they are usually convinced that their complaints are at least as fit as the rubbish they are complaining about. As a result, the usefulness of the Net diminishes *radically*. I think it's a very bad idea to start newsgroups to hold a certain *kind* of articles, such as flames. It's about as appropriate as newsgroups for *long* articles, or for *indented* ones, or *rotated*, or... Newsgroups should cover subjects, more or less specialized! It might seem useful in the beginning to have net.flame for things you don't like, but it won't work in the long run, as we can see. People can't see what these groups are all about (and that's a correct observation), and so they go using it as a header attribute instead! I have about the same experience from other electronic conference systems, independent of USENET News. Sometimes you could be lucky with an articles-of-a-kind newsgroup, maybe net.jokes fall into this category? I don't know, I don't read it either. To work, its subscribers should preferrably not have keyboardmania! Other such groups might be net.general, net.followup, net.announce and net.misc. Their common denominator is that they cover no subject. Strong moderation, either implemented or "socially imposed" (does that cover net.announce maybe?), seem to have some effect also. Net.jokes.d is an indication that net.jokes didn't work as well as expected, at least. Another problem is, once these groups are established, they are probably very difficult to get rid of. Well, net.flame goes everywhere anyway, so nobody, not even the flamers themselves, would take notice if it was removed (touch wood)... You certainly don't get rid of bad manners by piling them up. Anders Andersson;...!seismo!mcvax!enea!kuling!andersa ---------- From: ihlpg!jeand@ihnp4.UUCP Date: 8 Jul 85 16:04:55 CDT (Mon) I think that it [net.flame] would have two main purposes: 1) to provide a forum for heated (not necessarily name-calling, but nasty just the same) debate on any topic when it gets too hot in the appropriate newsgroup (a place for the arguers to "duke it out".) 2) to provide a place for people to "dump", like the msg that I read this morning from a guy who was at a restaurant where a child was being allowed to rampage. I don't think, as I have seen some suggest, that this sort of stuff should be sent to /dev/null. If it were true that just "writing it all down" was sufficient to relieve frustration, then I could write it all down on a sheet of paper and then shred it. I think it's the idea of communicating to another human being that gives it any purpose whatsoever. I think the best proposal that I have yet heard is to keep nut.flame local (how about an enforced state-wide distribution?) I'm not sure about having it machine-local, as the user base at a particular machine may be so small as to cause some problems (how about flaming over the affirmative action, and having a supervisor who is sensitive on that particular topic?) AMBAR ---------- From: dcdwest!ittvax!decvax!sunybcs!colonel@sdcsvax.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 85 11:29:53 edt As I understand it, net.flame was originally for non-personal criticism: manufacturers, products, standards, ideas, and so on. The criticism was typically not corrective and was of interest to users in general. By convention, writers used language as strong as they liked. This was a convenient use for net.flame, since it allowed angry users to vent their feelings. That feature is now the defining characteristic of net.flame. Writers may attack anything at all, including one another, without regard to whether the attack will interest the public. There is still no law of libel in net.flame, and there is no longer a law of courtesy. The old product criticisms have been absorbed into various appropriate other newsgroups. ---------- From: Andrew Scott Beals Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 15:01:35 pdt Geographic-Location: Ground Zero, in my office, Livermore CA Why to flame about anything that you want without people bitching at you and getting upset and causing your sa (me) hassles... andy -- UUCP: {akgua allegra ihnp4 hplabs sdcsvax trwrb cbosgd}!sdcrdcf!faigin ARPA: sdcrdcf!faigin@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA --or-- sdcrdcf!faigin@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU W: SDC, 2500 Colorado MD 52-46; Santa Monica CA 90406; (213) 820-4111 x6493 H: 11743 Darlington Avenue #9; Los Angeles CA 90049; (213) 826-3357 The views and opinions expressed in this message are not necessarily those of my employer, except the janitor who agrees with everything I write. I hope for his early recovery and release.