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From: hogan@rosevax.UUCP (Andy Hogan)
Newsgroups: net.origins
Subject: Re: codes,designs,creation,intelligence
Message-ID: <185@rosevax.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 16-Jul-85 18:59:46 EDT
Article-I.D.: rosevax.185
Posted: Tue Jul 16 18:59:46 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 20-Jul-85 11:19:24 EDT
References: <32500041@uiucdcsb>
Organization: Rosemount Inc., Eden Prairie, MN
Lines: 49

>From: miller@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA (A. Ray Miller)
>You will
>never be able to generate randomly a meaningful code in the lifetime of the
>universe, even one as short as "the theory of evolution".

There is an assumption of rate and/or of the liftime of the universe implicit
in this statement.  Ray is assigning HIS desired outcome a high probability
(possibly certainty) and making assumptions to prove it.  Given a fast enough
random letter generator (none exists here/now) you will find the probability 
of a meaningful string coming out will indeed become high.  In the absence of
absolute knowledge of the rate at which a primordial soup might produce 
life, we can make no conclusions about the probability of life arising on
Earth.  We can note that life is here, and investigate the possible rate of
life arising.  This is one of the aims of SETI, about which A.R.M writes:
>
> [a long somewhat stilted discussion on SETI and its goals and assumptions.
> I was going to include it, but felt it was too long.  The main point was
> that some on this net are saying to quit using evidence of desgin as
> evidence for special creation, but the SETI project is relying on finding
> signals in which the SETI crew will find evidence of design.  

The SETI project is looking for regular
electromagnetic phenomena which might be intelligently produced signals.
IF such signals are found (as with pulsars) they will be examined for patterns
which would be evidence of intelligence as we understand it.  Such evidence 
will not lead to the assumption of intelligence in the cautious, but will cause 
many to increase their hopes/estimates of probability of finding other 
intelligent life.  The key is that they will search for manipulation of 
the electromagnetic spectrum, not just regular radio waves.

This argument reminded me of the discussion on linguistic evolution, which
confused a (postulated) natural process (evolution) with an intelligence-
directed process (development of language.)  Many forms of electromagnetic
waves exist in nature--you are seeing some now-- but our manipulation of
those forms is evidence of intelligence.

>P.S.  I'll put the shoe on the other foot now:  Would some evolutionist on the
>net care to give us a definition of design which would allow SETI to recognize
>created patterns but would differentiate against those patterns found here on
>earth evolutionists claim to be produced only by natural processes?  Well?????

I believe one pattern SETI is looking for is the prime number sequence (1,2,3,
5,7,11,.......), encoded and repeated at intervals. No one has yet postulated 
a natural cause for such a series of events.

-- 
Andy Hogan   Rosemount, Inc.   Mpls MN
path: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!rosevax!hogan
Quality used to be free, but now it merely has a fantastic ROI.